robinjojo

In my disorganized quest to acquire anything round or roundish, made of some sort of metal and appears older than I am, here's a new style Athenian tetradrachm from the time of Sulla (86-84 AD).

Just an overview of Margaret Thompson's plates indicates that lots of these owls appear to have been produced under Sulla, driven it appears by our old friend economic necessity.  He needed all the money that he could lay his hands during the war with Mithridates and his allies which included Athens.  Having starved Athens into capitulation following a brutal siege in 87 AD, he spared the city from total destruction, merely sacking it, a time-honored practice.  These owls were issued in the ensuing few years following the fall of Athens.

The owls produced during his occupation are quite distinctive both in their obverse treatment of Athena and the owl on the reverse.  The engraving styles can range from good to crude attempts, compared to prior new style owls, indicating that die engravers of varying artistic abilities were employed by the mint.  Coins had to be produced quickly, to meet Sulla's demands, a very familiar situation. 

I've been looking some time for a decent type owl from this turbulent period in the histories of Rome and Greece.  What I ended up with is a midrange coin grade-wise.  The French firm graded it as an EF.  There is no way that this coin is anywhere close.  I don't know why they do this, but if you get beyond that issue and just judge the coin on its own merits and faults, good purchases from them are still possible.  To me this coin grades Fine, maybe a good Fine for wear with good centering, given the narrower flan.  There might also be a case of worn dies, especially on the obverse.  A beauty it is not, but it is quite a historical coin.

This coin is one of the cruder examples, struck on a typically narrower flan, resulting is some detail off the flan, but the centering is decent.  The weight is within the range of other examples listed in the Thompson catalog.  The closest match with the Sulla new style owls in the Thompson plates is 1303a.

Athens under Roman rule, new style owl, 86-84 AD.   ΛAYPIA M[E]TAΛΛA monograms on reverse.  Month "A" on the amphora (quite weak).

Sulla, Group I, Thompson 1303a.

24mm; 16.43 grams

Perhaps this coin is a die match, at least of the obverse, for 1303a?  Here's the Thompson catalog photo:

8 minutes ago, kirispupis said:

In general I've seen more coins blow up on CNG than elsewhere. Pretty much when there is something rare and I want it, there's now little chance I'll win even with a strong bid. On other sites I still have a chance.

I have found it increasingly difficult to find "buys" through auctions. It's a combination of fees (increasing) and increasing cash flowing into these venues that takes the fun out of them.  It seems nowadays that the bidder with the biggest shovel and largest pile of money will prevail - time to return to bottom feeding, such as it is.

Sometimes something interesting shows up on eBay, but that is "caveat emptor" land.  Sometimes after sale or remainder lots offer some opportunity, depending on one's area(s) of interest.

Have you seen the latest Aaron Berk podcast?  That's number 42.  He discusses the coinage of Lycia and mentions that this is an area that offers an opportunity to collect at an "affordable" level, but I must say the prices realized (what I could see) generally seem high.  The coinage is quite interesting, though.

8 minutes ago, kirispupis said:

Wow! I noticed it this morning when it still had a lowball bid. I debated going for it but then felt it didn't fit my collection criteria enough.

Looks like whether I had bid or not the result would have been the same. 🙂 

Yup, definitely a blowout!  My bid of $190 was clearly an act of futility in retrospect.

This could be a situation where at least two highly specialized collectors of these coins got into a bidding war.  I've been collecting imitation owls for the past several years, but I just don't have the means, or desire, to engage is such activity.  Generally speaking almost all of my imitative owls are from the retail market, not auctions.

This coin hammered at $1,600, plus a 20% buyer's fee, for a total of $1,920.  The estimate for the lot, typically "low ball" was $250. It is described as unlisted, which is very likely true, but I have seen many other imitative coins that don't easily fit into cataloged types.

https://auctions.cngcoins.com/lots/view/4-D0YHSQ/uncertain-east-mid-late-4th-century-bc-ar-tetradrachm-20mm-1308-g-10h-imitating-athens-near-vf

The fabric of the coin looks like one of those owls attributed to Mesopotamia that have recently appeared on the market, with a low weight of 13.08 grams (shekel weight).  However, it could have originated elsewhere in that eastern region.

Here's one of the owls currently on the market attributed to Mesopotamia (Mazakes).  Note that his name, in Aramaic, is not present; instead there is the normal AΘE to the right.

https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/ancient_artifacts__treasures/4/product/mazakes_satrap_of_mesopotamia__ar_tetradrachm_imitating_athens__athena__owl/2029855/Default.aspx

Here's an eastern owl, with "find" patina, that I acquired in 2016 that has a weight 13.8 grams, not as light as the CNG coin, but definitely in the shekel weight range, quite a wide one depending on local standards and period.

Possibly Philistia or Phoenicia, imitating Athens, tetradrachm, late 5th to mid 4th century.

13.8 grams

41 minutes ago, kirispupis said:

Personally, I rather like the bronzes issued around this time. They're also quite rare and can be difficult to find/procure, but many have been dated to relatively short periods of time.

Attica, Athens
circa 307-300 BCE
Æ 15 mm, 3,91 g
Obv: Head of Athena r., wear Corinthian helmet with crests and, on visor, snake ornament
Rev: HO- Owl standing, facing; all in olive wreath.
Sv. 22.85-88; Kroll 50b

 

Attica, Athens
circa 340-322 BCE
Æ 14 mm, 2,19 g
Obv: Head of Athena r., wearing Attic helmet.
Rev: OE. Double-bodied owl stg. on Eleusis ring; in each upper corner, olive spray
Sv. 22.37; Kroll 43c

 

Athens Attica
ca. 270 – 261 BCE
Ae 13.5mm, 2.9gms
Obv: Helmeted head of Athena right
Rev: A – OE; Owl standing right with head facing, poppy in right field
Ref: Walker Period I, 58

Lovely examples!

The bronze coins of Athens are very interesting and, I think, generally not appreciated as much as their more glamorous silver cousins.  Those three examples are great coins.

This is my only Athenian bronze coin, minted later in the second to early first century BC.

Attica, Athens, AE 14, 130-90 BC.

  HGC 4, 1734; Kroll 1993, no. 100. cicada-owl on thunderbolt

4.19 grams 

Obverse: Cicada, viewed from top.

Reverse: Owl standing on thunderbolt, AΘE to left.

I think the drawing of collectors and others to the classical owls is their availability and historical significance, but also the design which reflects the archaic roots of these coins, however well or poorly executed.  Yes, the eye is not natural.  That came later with the intermediate pi-style owls, which unfortunately have not garnered the attention given to the classical owls.  I say unfortunately because these coins, crude and "dumpy" as they are warrant more attention by collectors.  But, they do post date Athens' "Golden Age" and as such do not have the cachet of the classical owls.  I love them, though, as well as the New Styles.  After all, they are of the same lineage, going back to the earliest Athenian archaic owls of the late 6th century BC..

I agree with NewStyleKing that the owls immediately proceeding the New Style owls are very rare, and that there a general lack of information about these elusive coins.  I would love to acquire a post Quadridigité style owl (circa 286 - 262 BC), but I have yet to see offered.  Of course my search is quite narrow, limited to a handful of auction houses, VCoins, MA Shops and eBay.  

I agree.  The classical owls seem to have a "floor" price.  Decent examples do seem to hover around the £400 to  £550 hammer price range, while higher grade or coins with full or nearly full crest detail can go as high as £850 or so, plus the juice charged by the auction house.  Slabbed owls, as always, command more and their price ranges can be all over the map.  

As has been commented many times in the forum auctions have become just too expensive for many collectors.  The retail market is often the much better way to go when it comes to affordability.  

That's the most I've seen offered in a single auction by Roma, probably most if not all from the gargantuan hoard that surface in Turkey several years ago.  They will generally sell in the  £400 to  £550 range, I think, but there is the 22.5% buyer's fee, plus foreign exchange rates (the US dollar has dropped somewhat), and shipping which isn't exactly getting any cheaper.

There are a couple of New Style owls as well.

Nice coins!

Here's my only Frances II thaler, purchased from Hal Blackburn around 1981.

Germany, Free City of Regensburg, Francis II, thaler,  1793.  

KM 469

28.03 grams

Here are a couple more imaginary bust coins from the period.  Both are from 1809 and have the armored imaginary bust that was issued until 1811, when the proper bust was introduced later that year.

Ferdinand VII, 8 escudos, Mexico, 1809HJ.

KM 160

27 grams

Ferdinand VII, 8 reales, Mexico, 1809TH.

KM 110

26.88 grams

As I go through the boxes that comprise the collection, really journey through time, I photographed a coin from my Spanish colonial coinage phase, covering around two decades.  This is an imaginary bust 8 reales from Lima, dated 1808.  In the past this style was referred to as the Indian bust, though I think such a designation these days may not be appropriate, so let's call it the Lima style imaginary bust.

Lima also minted for most of 1808 8 reales with the legend and portrait of Charles IV. 

Prior to the arrival of dies from Spain with an accurate portrait, die engravers in Mexico, Santiago and Lima were left to their own devices when news of Ferdinand's success arrived in Spain's colonial possessions.  Perhaps these renderings were based on paintings of Ferdinand VII, but perhaps another source was used. It's also important to remember that this transition from Charles IV to Ferdinand VII occurred during the wars of independence throughout Latin America and the Napoleonic War, and the associated interruptions in communications with Spain

Other mints, notably Bogota and Guatemala, resolved the problem by simply continuing to use the bust of Charles IV, but changing the legend to Ferdinand VII.  In the case of Bogota, the bust Charles IV was used continuously through Colombia's independence from Spain on August 7, 1819, with 1820 being the last date for this type.

Lima minted these imaginary 8 reales from 1808 to 1811.  The bust size varies over this period, ranging from large (1808) to medium (1809) to small by 1810-1811.  Eight reales dated 1808 are the rarest, but some later varieties are quite scarce.  By far 1811 is the most common Lima date with the imaginary bust.  Later that year Lima began minting coins with the proper bust; those coins are quite rare.

This coin is generally nice, but with a few small rim nicks and minor scratches.

Peru, Ferdinand VII, 8 reales, Lima, 1808 JP.  Large Bust.

KM 106.1

27.2 grams 

Here's an example of Colombia's "frozen" portrait of Charles IV, with a Ferdinand VII legend.

Colombia, 8 escudos, Ferdinand VII, Bogota, 1810JF.

KM 66.1

26.8 grams

Are there any other imaginary portrait coins out there?  Please post if you wish and other coins are always welcome!

Thanks

3 hours ago, Nerosmyfavorite68 said:

Thanks!!  Did the Egyptian owls circulate in Judea/Phoenicia?

Yes, hoard evidence points to the circulation of pharaonic owls in what is now Syria (1989 Syria Hoard) and Iraq (1973) to name two major groups.  Owls issued under the Persian satraps Artaxerxes, Sabakes and Mazakes were included, along with Athenian intermediate owls and I think a few Athenian classical owls and non-owl coinage as well.

My experience collecting imitative owls indicate a wide circulation area that includes Anatolia (roughly present day Turkey), Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran (Persia) the Arabian Peninsula, Bactria and India, although I don't have a documented owl from that country/region. 

Here's a link to a PDF for Peter G. van Alfen's article MECHANISMS FOR THE IMITATION OF ATHENIAN COINAGE : DEKELEIA
AND MERCENARIES RECONSIDERED.  It's well worth reading and bookmarking for future reference.  I believe the article can be saved as a PDF file.

http://www.numisbel.be/2011_4.pdf

The reverse graffiti is tough to decipher, but here's a stab at it.  From left to right there's a Phoenician N, then a W, then a P (?), perhaps a H on its side due to space limitations, ending perhaps with a Z.  The characters could be Aramaic, but Phoenician seems a better fit.

I'm almost totally ignorant when it comes to ancient languages and alphabets.  I rely on what I can find using Google, which is by no means the best source.

Here's a table of the Phoenician alphabet, courtesy Wikipedia:

This is my only example with a halfway decent portrait is this provincial coin, rather crude and with somewhat rough surfaces.  I wonder what was in those urns on the reverse.

Valerian I, Æ 30, Anazarbus, Cilicia. CY 272 (253/4 AD) .

)RPC X Online Unassigned ID 60270 (this coin cited)

17.85 grams

Here are two more.

Italy, Naples under Philip II of Spain, Kingdom of the two Sicilies, ducaton,, 1564-71.

CNI XX, page 67, 578; Davenport 8317.

29.79 grams 

And his son:

Italy, Naples under Philip III of Spain, Kingdom of the Two Sicilies, 1611 P, Messina.

Spahr 5

31.59 grams

13 minutes ago, Ursus said:

Lovely coin! My only Philip II is much more pedestrian:

Spanish Monarchy, under Philip II, AE 4 maravedis, 1584–1585 AD, Burgos mint, moneyer: Juan De Morales. Obv:  [+DON·PHELIPPE·II· ]; castle; in fields, B–M and circle Rev: [+REI·DE·LAS·HESPAÑAS]; crowned lion l. 21mm, 4.07g. Ref: Calíco 2008, 781.

That's a lovely 4 maravedis of Burgos!  Wonderful centering and strike.

8 minutes ago, expat said:

Lovely portrait, some great detail left still.

3 centuries earlier, my earliest Spanish coin

JAIME I. (1213-1276 AD). Crown of Aragon.
Obverse: ARAGON., bust of King Jaime, crowned and draped, left.
Reverse: IACOBVS REX., cross of Caravaca, (Patriarchal Cross).
1 Denier (1/240th Libra), Billon.
1.09g. 18mm. Jaca mint, (1085-1340), Spain. CRU # 318.

That's a wonderful example!  This coin reminds me of the PBS series Ornament of the World, a history of Moorish and Christian Spain.  I would love to have a type coin such as this one and perhaps I'll get around to it.

This is a coin that I acquired in 2015 during my world coinage collecting phase.  I'm not sure what phase I am in currently, maybe more like episodes of the Twilight Zone....

This particular coin has a nice portrait of the old boy (a late one, I think), especially for a hammer struck coin.  These coins used to be available quite frequently in the past, but in recent times not so much, and the prices are quite high now.

Italy, Naples under Philip III of Spain, Kingdom of the Two Sicilies, half ducaton, no date (1556-1598).

MIR.8174

14.57 grams

Obverse legend : PHILIPP DG KING ARA. VTRI
Obverse description: Bust to the right of Philip II crowned and armored.
Obverse translation: (Philippe, by the grace of God, king of Aragon and Sicily).

Reverse legend : SICILIAE. HIERVSA. 
Reverse description: Shield quartered, 1 counter-quartered in 1 and 4, Léon, in 2 and 3 of Castile; in the 2nd half of Aragon and Sicily; to the 3 counter-quartered in 1 of modern Austria, in 2 of modern Burgundy, in 3 of ancient Burgundy, in 4 of Tyrol, on all a small shield; in the 4th half of Sicily and Hungary. The shield is topped with a crown cutting the legend at the top.
Reverse translation: (Sicily and Jerusalem).

So, please feel free to post you Philip II coins, coins of the Renaissance, Italy, Spain or anything else under the sun or moon. 

Thanks!

That Nero Alexandrian tetradrachm is a real beauty!  Your father must have had a really good eye when selecting coins.

I'm looking forward to your photos of other coins in the collection.  

I've never used WISE, but this is very good advice - there are a lot of sharks out there online.

Here's one more hammer-struck silver rider, and my latest one, dated 1680.

Netherlands, Gelders, silver rider(ducaton), 1680.  Purchased from Karl Stephens

Davenport 4924

32.46 grams  

Nice coins!  That 1/2 groschen of Schweidnitz is really interesting.

Here's a 1 1/2 rubles, Warsaw mint. Purchased from Karl Stephens in the 1990s. 

Russia, Poland (under Russian rule), 1 1/2 rubles or 10 zlotych, 1835, Nicholas I, Warsaw Mint.

Gum 2550; C 129.

30.24 grams 

I have one more Polish crown that I will photograph tomorrow.

An equestrian painting of Sigismund III Vasa, by Peter Paul Rubens

During the 17th century, Poland was at her zenith of power, before the tragedy of the conquest and partition that occurred in the 18'th at the hands of Prussia, Russia and the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

Sigismund III Vasa (20 June 1566 – 30 April 1632) is one of the most recognizable and influential figures of the late 16th to early 17th century.  He was central figure in the politics and wars of central Europe during this period.

This silver ort is a relatively common coin, much more so than the thalers of this ruler.  It is, in a way, a replacement for the Sigismund III Vasa thaler that I sold many years ago, never to be replaced because in the skyrocketing demand and prices for those impressive, historical coins.  This particular coin has the arms of Danzig on the reverse, making it a municipal issue.

Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Sigismund III Vasa, AR ort (quarter thaler), Gdansk (Danzig) mint, 1625.

Kopicki 7506; KM 15.2.

6.91 grams, 29mm.

So, please post your Polish coins and anything else you please.

Thanks.

Egypt, Ptolemaic Kingdom, Cleopatra VII, AE 80 drachmae, circa 50-40 BC.

Sear 1871

17.4 grams

Livia, dupondius, 21-22 AD.

RIC 47,  

13.4 grams

Sabina, BI tetradrachm, Alexandria Year 15 130/1 AD.

Cologne-1262; Dattari-2063; BM-918; RPC-5774 (9 specimens)

12.84 grams

Faustina II, Æ Sestertius. Rome, AD 170-175/6. MATRI reverse.  Ex Carmona.  Roma E-Sale 94, lot 900.

Cohen 169; BMCRE 932

25.72 grams

Julia Mamaea, sestertius, 222-235 AD .  VENVS GENERTRIX reverse.

Cohen 74

19.49 grams 

Herennia Etruscilla, Antoninianus, 250 AD, PVDICITIA AVG reverse.

RIC 58b

5.6 grams

And one non-Roman coin:

England, Elizabeth I, crown, mm 1, 1602. 

Here's a classical standardized owl that I purchased for the interesting countermark.

Attica, Athens, standardized classical owl, 440-404 BC.  Possible Aramaic 'B' (beth) countermark.

17.13 grams

The countermark  is very small and is located near the earring, to the right.  There's a definite curved tail at the bottom and a horizontal bar at the top, with a slight indentation in the middle.  Based on my Google search this is the closest I can find as a match, albeit an approximate one:, Imperial Aramaic "B" 5th century BC.  If anyone has other insights, please post.  Thanks!

 or ?

Here's an enlargement of the countermark (sorry for the blurriness).