velarfricative

5 hours ago, JayAg47 said:

After looking for this type on Vcoins for more than a year, this one just popped up today, only costs 4 times more than the coin I won at an eBay auction a couple months ago! Looks like these coins are getting expensive as the years pass!

Have you considered bidding at SARC?

19 hours ago, Parthicus said:

Thanks @DLTcoins for your notes on the inscription.  Unfortunately Mitchiner is the only reference I have in hand for Kushano-Sasanian (and many other) coins.  It is a useful reference but, as you note, should certainly be considered skeptically.  I usually supplement it with online sources such as Zeno, but of course Zeno has its own issues. Why doesn't someone just make a complete, up-to-date, accurate, easy-to-use book that fully attributes every variety of ancient coin?  Oh, and the book should be free or very inexpensive.  I can't imagine why nobody has made such a book. 🤔

There's a great reference for Kushan coins, though it's a bit expensive; "Kushan, Kushano-sasanian, and Kidarite Coins: A Catalogue of Coins from the American Numismatic Society". The forthcoming BM catalogue will be even better, but I have no idea when that will release. For specifically Kushano-Sasanian coins, Joe Cribb's article is available for free online; it's a bit older but as far as I know still fairly up-to-date.

Your first coin does not depict a subordinate ruler; there are other investiture scene types that do identify it as a deity. In this earlier type, the deity is identified as Lady Anahita; there is a dinar as well, which shows up very rarely. As for your second coin, it is an issue of Peroz I Kushanshah; there are no other rulers who issued coins with that combination of obverse and reverse. The complete legend reads ΠΙΡΩΖΟ ΟΟΖΟΡΚΟ ΚΟϷΑΝΟ ϷΟΥΟ, with ΟΟΡΖΑΟΑΝΔΟ ΙΑΖΑΔΟ on the reverse.

An update, with a new Lysias; this time, with a helmet. They only get scarcer from here; the diademed bust is very hard to find, and the bust wearing a kausia is nearly impossible to get without spending upwards of 2k.

15 hours ago, kirispupis said:

The following is a rough outline of an algorithm that should work.

1. Create a model to pull the full attribution from a listing. This should look something like "Doobie Bros 1989 Pl 10 num 5; Flipperdoodle SNG 95.2". This shouldn't be overly difficult to train and should have a high success rate because the syntax for the attribution is similar across listings. 
2. Given the extracted attribution, create an AI model to pick apart the individual attributions. So, for the example above, we would have two. Doobie Bros 1989 Pl 10 Num 5 and Flipperdoodle SNG 95.2. Again, this doesn't need the most complex model.
3. Normalize the above attributions. This may be the trickiest part so far because the normalized syntax will likely vary by catalog. It may be necessary to create a state machine (though they can probably be generated) to accomplish this. Normalization will be required on the search engine side too, to normalize the input before querying.
4. You've now accomplished a basic attribution search. One can search for a specific type from Doobie Bros or Flipperdoodle, the input will be normalized, and then you don't even need a full text search. An index (yes, people seem afraid of them now) search may achieve what we need.
5. Cross correlation is also not difficult. Because we have a collection of attributions for each listing, we just need to first index on the attributions (which we should have already done in the previous step) and then for each attribution find all other attributions that accompany it. We can then calculate a correlation between them. Given a threshold that we should be able to calculate from the data, we can then add a secondary index to pull all the records that match from a correlated attribution. Note that these operations can be done with non-relational databases too, for those who find SQL weird.
6. Now, we've achieved most of what we were after. Attempting to pick out mis-attributed coins is possible if an image search is also available. Basically, for each attribution we calculate a similarity score of their images. Alternatively, we could create a boolean AI model that simply returns whether the images are similar. For the small number that are not, we could remove the attribution - or more likely index it separately so customers may decide whether to include them. Actually fixing the attribution is more complicated, since that would involve a very sophisticated image search that I don't believe exists today.

In reality, I don't think many are going to be bothered by the mis-attributions as long as the attribution search (based on the normalized listing only) is accurate. At this point the algorithm is returning only those listings that were actually attributed as requested, and any errors are caused by the seller. 

With regard to #1 and #2, I'm not sure I would call multilingual information extraction "not the most complex". Unless you intend to exclude all non-English auction houses, that is.

All of these uniface types are unpublished. Auction houses usually give a smattering of references to Senior, who lists early Indo-Scythian coinage, but none of it is really close to these.

1 hour ago, Parthicus said:

I've worked up two more coins from my Whitman Baltimore haul and am ready to present my findings:

Coin 1: Bactria. AE square obol (21 x 19 mm). Eukratides I (171-135 BC). Obverse: Helmeted bust right, 3-line Greek legend around "[Bas]ilews Megalou [Eukratidou] (Of the great king Eukratides). Reverse: The Dioskouroi on horseback, two-line Kharoshthi legend above and below "Maharajasa [Evukratidasa]" (Of the great king Eukratides). MACW 1730-1732, This coin: Purchased from Tamco Numismatics at the Baltimore Whitman Coin Expo, October 2022.

Coin 2: Indo-Scythians. AE square trichalkon (22 x 22 mm). Taxila mint. Obverse: King on horseback right, 4-line Greek legend around "[Bas]ilews basileon megalou [Azilisou]" (of the great king of kings Azilises). Reverse: Herakles seated left holding club, Kharoshthi legend around. MACW 2286. This coin: Purchased from Tamco Numismatics at the Baltimore Whitman Coin Expo, October 2022.

(Some historical sections below recycled from earlier posts of mine.)

Bactria was a territory containing land in what is now Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, and Tajikistan. The area was conquered by Alexander the Great, and it devolved on his Seleucid successors before breaking away and calving its own line of secessionist Indo-Greek kingdoms. Eukratides I became king of Bactria in 171 BC by overthrowing his predecessor, Euthydemus I, although it is unclear if Eukratides was a disgruntled Bactrian army officer or if he was a relative of the Seleucid king Antiochus IV who headed to the Wild East to try and reclaim lost Seleucid territory. (The start date of Eukratides' reign is set at 171 BC because of a historical mention by Justin that Eukratides of Bactria took power at the same time as Mithradates I of Parthia. If you've read anything about the difficulties in our understanding of Parthian history, you realize how insane it sounds to use Parthian history as a fixed point for dating other events.) Eukratides would go on to have military success against his Indo-Greek neighbors, but he lost some of his western territory, including the city of Herat (in modern Afghanistan) to Mithradates I of Parthia. He is considered one of the most important Bactrian kings, and he issued a large amount of coinage. While the king's name is off the flan on both sides, the designs are sufficient to narrow down the identification.

The Indo-Scythians were originally a nomadic people who conquered a large region in the northern and north-western Indian subcontinent around the mid-2nd century BC. Unfortunately, the details of Indo-Scythian history are poorly understood, as very few historical sources survive; Indo-Scythian history makes Parthian history look complete and uncontroversial. Azilises appears to have co-reigned with Azes I, although some scholars hold that Azes I and Azes II were actually one long-lived king. It is known that shortly after the reign of Azes II, the nascent Kushan Empire conquered Taxila and surrounding territories, as they expanded at the expense of the Indo-Scythians. The city of Taxila, located in what is now Punjab province in Pakistan, was a major point of contact between Central Asia and the Indian subcontinent for many centuries, from the around 1000 BC to the time of the Kushans, but it began to decline in importance until it was finally destroyed by the Huns and abandoned in the 5th century AD. While the king's name is missing on the Greek inscription, the Kharoshthi plainly reads "Ayilishasa" on the left side, making the ID secure.

I picked these coins from a $25 per coin "your pick" pile of mixed Bactrian, Indo-Greek, Indo-Scythian etc. coins. (This is the same group that yielded the Indo-Parthian coin I recently posted.) Square bronze coins are an interesting feature of these series, and I picked out two examples that were well-preserved and had interesting designs (Dioskouroi on galloping horses and Herakles with a huge club), so that I could have fun identifying them later. Please post whatever related coins you have.

Looks like a posthumous Indo-Scythian Eukratides issue; those are much harder to find, I think, and this is a nice example.

48 minutes ago, Deinomenid said:

I do  understand how Robert Ready of  British  Museum fame is apparently collectible  (auction  houses keep telling me this  though I've not met anyone who focuses their collections on this,  just saying....) but this week these 3 reputable  houses are all selling coins that will quite likely be flipped as real, as the great bazaar of Ebay so often shows. I just don't  know why they bother. A few  dozen $ in commission, as these rarely sell for very much as reproductions.

It's often really hard for a nonexpert to tell what's what, especially as  Ready signed the edge and many don't ask for that image when  buying.

In the case of the Kimon dec (there's always one of these!) the Robert Ready initials are described as "traces of R R on edge" aka someone tried to remove them. Hmm,  I wonder why.

If they are going to sell their souls, surely there are better or more profitable ways of doing it. It just seems so unnecessary and cynical.

So in case this just seems  like a whine, which it isn't as  I am fairly good at detecting fakes (which probably means only  half  my collection is fake!) I'd propose they do something about  it. Take the coins in and just sit on them, black cabinet them, HJ Berk-style. They are rounding errors in terms an annual profit and loss, they could win some  kudos, and probably help underpin confidence in the broader market. Or heck if I am wrong and they desperately need to sell acknowledged fakes to turn an overall profit, offer to round  up invoices to the nearest dollar so cover the (low) cost of this if they want me and others to pay for their integrity. 

 

Heck, the Roma fakes even seem to be copies of a famous copy. "Struck copy after Carl Wilhelm Becker (1772-1830) by an unknown maker"...

 

Maybe I should just start collecting these  instead and burn them on my funeral pyre when the time comes.

eg

https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=6254&lot=1511

https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=6247&lot=911

https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=6236&lot=679

https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=6246&lot=1814

 

Would  it be cynical of me to say that all these coins are - if sold as original - very expensive. Ready and  his sons made many copies of "lesser" coins too but oddly these rarely come  up.

 

 

 

 

 

https://cngcoins.com/Lot.aspx?LOT_ID=53548&BACK_URL=%2fLots.aspx%3fIS_ADVANCED%3d1%26ITEM_IS_SOLD%3d1%26ITEM_DESC%3delectrotype%26SEARCH_IN_CONTAINER_TYPE_ID_1%3d1%26SEARCH_IN_CONTAINER_TYPE_ID_2%3d1%26SEARCH_IN_CONTAINER_TYPE_ID_3%3d1%26SEARCH_IN_CONTAINER_TYPE_ID_4%3d1%26TABS_TYPE%3d3%26CONTAINER_NAME%3d%26CONTAINER_TYPE_ID%3d3%26VIEW_TYPE%3d0%26MAX_COUNT%3d10000%26PAGE%3d1

This is an electrotype of a medallion whose whereabouts are no longer known; should we go on and melt it down because new collectors might not read the description of the coin they're bidding on? I think not, there's a lot of value in electrotypes providing a means for collectors to buy coins they could never afford, in grades that perhaps only can be found in a museum if anywhere.

35 minutes ago, Parthicus said:

I have some free time today, so I will start to research and ID my Baltimore haul. First: a coin that I (correctly) guessed was Indo-Parthian:

Indo-Parthians, province of Arachosia. AE tetradrachm. Abdagases (c. 55-110 AD). Obverse: Bust of king right, legend in Greek clockwise around [Basile]ws swt[eros Abdagasou] (Of the King and Savior Abdagases). Reverse: Winged Nike standing right, holding a wreath, legend in Kharoshthi script counterclockwise around Maharaja[sa tratarasa Avadagasha]sa (Of the King and Savior Abdagases). Mitchiner "Ancient and Classical World" 2542-3. This coin: Purchased from Tamco Numismatics at the Whitman Baltimore Coin Expo, October 2022.

The Indo-Parthian dynasty was descended from Scythian tribesmen who settled in what is now Afghanistan and northern Pakistan in the late 2nd century BC. The Indo-Parthians proper begin with Gondophares, a prince of Sakastan (in western Afghanistan) and subject to the Parthians, declared his independence from his Parthian overlords in about 20 AD. Gondophares then conquered territory to his east from Indo-Scythians and remaining Indo-Greeks, but was unable to advance to the north due to the early Kushan empire. Here's a map of the Indo-Parthian territory during Gondophares' reign:

(map is public domain, from Wikipedia)

Gondophares was succeeded by his nephew Abdagases (c.55-110 AD). During Abdagases' reign the Indo-Parthian kingdom began to decline, with the ascendant Kushan Empire taking much of their territory. While the Indo-Parthians never again became a major force, the last Indo-Parthian rulers survived until the end of the Parthian kingdom in the 220s AD, as the new Sasanian empire asserted its dominion in the region.

I bought this coin unattributed from a "your pick for $25" pile of Indo-Greek, Indo-Parthian, Indo-Scythian, etc. bronze coins. I guessed that it was Indo-Greek, based on the portrait style which seemed familiar. However, attributing this coin to Abdagases rather than Gondophares proved tricky. Their portrait style is identical, and the key portion of the inscription that names the king is off the flan for both the Greek and Kharoshthi script. Providentially, the surviving portion of the Greek inscription includes two clear omegas and two clear sigmas, and both the sigma and omega are written in later variant forms (omega as W and sigma as C). All the examples I could find with both variant Greek letters that could be attributed to a specific king were assigned to Abdagases. Therefore, I am fairly confident that this coin is of Abdagases. This coin was a good deal price-wise, and I enjoyed the intellectual puzzle of trying to attribute it with key portions of the legend missing. Please post your Indo-Parthian coins, or whatever else is related.

 

Curiously on these, the Kharosthi legend is actually "maharajasa avadagashasa tratarasa"; the "tra" in "tratarasa" appears to be visible on your example. I do think you're right about the round letter forms indicating that this is Abdagases, though it's a shame about the names being off the flan.

From the auction house: "Thank you very much for notifying us about this. It is quite disturbing to learn about the origin of those coins. We have taken immediate action and will hand the coins over to the authorities." A very respectable and prompt response from them, and looks like they've already been withdrawn.

Recently, while double-checking some coins at Oslo Myntgalleri to verify authenticity, it came to my attention that several of the coins at the upcoming auction are plate coins in "Le Tresor Monetaire de Qunduz". https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=6221&lot=1051 , https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=6221&lot=1052, https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=6221&lot=1054

For those who are unaware, all of the coins published in that book were stolen from the Kabul museum in the early 90s, and are certainly not legal to own. Anybody have any idea who I should be contacting to make sure these should be getting back to their proper owners?

Here's a Maues type; this example is a plate coin from Mitchiner's work in the 70s.

8 hours ago, Cordoba said:

i wanted this diodotus tetradrachm but went way above what i planned to bid for it lol

It actually went quite cheaply, but I woke up far too late to bid myself, unfortunately. Kunker's estimates are very misleading, this is an expensive type.

Kunker went just fine for me, the Kushan section was absurdly cheap, around the level of early 2000s prices. I picked up a Vasishka myself. Though, with this photo, I have no idea what it'll look like in hand!

There's been an unpublished coin floating around for a while now that had gotten me curious; I was suspicious of its authenticity but it can often be difficult to determine when unpublished coins surface. They have been attributed to Eukratides, on account of the monogram also being present on many of his staters. All examples shared the same dies, and many seemed to have odd dots and marks at the edge of the flan. Attached are a couple examples:

Recently, however, an example showed up that gave a little bit more info, at a German auction house.

Astute observers will see the problem; below the monogram on the reverse is actually a Kharosthi letter, 𐨯 (sa), which is found often on Indo-greek coins, but never on a Eukratides stater! So, what's going on? In fact, there is one coin many of you are familiar with that also has this monogram: Menander!

The reverse is actually a small portion of a transfer die, taken from a Menander drachm; above are a couple examples of the portion of the coin that was used for the reverse here. Visible on the German specimen are also a portion of Athena's dress and another Kharosthi sa, confirming the source. I haven't found the host coin yet, but with the distinctive damage marks on the monogram it would be easy to spot if it turns up. I haven't identified the horse yet, but I would love to know where he comes from; it looks like there's traces of a legend there, too, so perhaps someone more observant than me can find it. Watch out, bidders! There are some very creative forgers out there.

On 9/2/2022 at 3:14 PM, Cordoba said:

Greco-Baktrian Kingdom, Heliokles I Dikaios AR Tetradrachm. Circa 145-130 BC. Diademed and draped bust to right; all within bead-and-reel border / Zeus standing facing half-left, wearing himation, holding winged thunderbolt in right hand and lotus-tipped sceptre in left; monogram in left field, ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ to right, ΗΛΙΟΚΛΕΟΥΣ to left, ΔΙΚΑΙΟΥ in exergue. Bopearachchi 1U; Mitchiner 284o; SNG ANS 642-48; HGC 12, 169. 16.95g, 29mm, 12h.

got this at a recent roma auction, i love how lustrous it is. the details are super fine too

Very nice, quite a few of these have been hitting the market lately! My own most recent from Baktria, but a drachm and not a tetradrachm.

The outcomes of the analysis seem to be summarized in this chart Joe Cribb published on Academia: https://www.academia.edu/15209190/The_Soter_Megas_coins_of_the_first_and_second_Kushan_kings_Kujula_Kadphises_and_Wima_Takto Unfortunately, though, to the best of my knowledge the accompanying paper is not online. At the very least, the final page has a fantastic summary of the state of the monetary system in the region over the course of the early Kushan rulers.

8 hours ago, dougsmit said:

Has anyone suggested a period where two kings ruled jointly as the case with some Romans?  If rays indicated dating as once was the theory and tamgha style indicated ruler, that would seem an answer but I was unaware of that in this culture.

It's extremely unlikely, I would think; it contradicts the sources we have, at least. The Chinese account of the rise of the Kushan reads: "Qiujiuque [Kujula Kadphises] was more than eighty years old when he died. His son, Yangaozhen, became king in his place. He defeated Tianzhu [North-western India] and installed Generals to supervise and lead it." The Rabatak inscription also seems to indicate a fairly standard succession.

4 hours ago, dougsmit said:

If the 4/3  prongs are transitional, it would seem the obverse rays should all be the same count.  Mine is too off center to help.  Do you have input on this question?

From the ANS catalogue, coins with a 4-pronged tamgha on either or both sides have either 10, 12, or 13 rays. Nearly all are on issues with the square lettering style, though there are examples with 4 prongs on both sides with cursive lettering.

13 hours ago, dougsmit said:

I had not heard that one.  It will take some work to convince me that the prongs and letter styles don't indicate mints.

I cannot comment on the letter styles, and that may indicate mints; but as for prongs, it's at least plausible that it indicates ruler. Small modifications to the tamgha on the ascension of a new king are standard for all rulers until Vasudeva; the only difference between Kanishka and Huvishka's tamgha is a single crossbar, for instance. The argument would be something along the lines that Kujula Kadphises' tamgha was the 4-pronged one, and Vima's is the 3-pronged one; the mixed issues with both 3- and 4-pronged tamghas could be explained away as transitional. A mix like that would not be unprecedented; early issues of Huvishka use Kanishka's tamgha before eventually switching over.

On 10/6/2022 at 5:22 PM, dougsmit said:

There was a period in my collecting where I tried to get interested in Soter Megas and tried to assemble a representative selection.  There are two denominations often called drachms and tetradrachms but I might call the units and quarter units not really knowing what the users called them.  There were several mints (3 or 4???) often distinguished by style of the lettering.  Some used rounded letters (note the W omegas) but can be squared.  Sometimes the tamgha on one side or both have four prongs other than the usual three.  The coins are dated by the number of rays on the crown BUT it is odd IMO since the earlier ones have the most rays (14???) while later ones go down (to 5???).  That means I really did not like coins off center enough to not show countable rays or letters of the ones that were different.  The four denomination is not all that easy to find full legend so I compromised and bought the awful obverse to get the full reverse legend. It also shows the weapon/ax of the king clearly and well rounded E and W

This one is a 'one' denomination with a lot of hard to count certainly rays

THis single has twelve countable rays and four pronged tamghas on each side.  While it is not full legend, it shows cleraly sguared E and W letters making it a winner in my book if only fine in grade.

This square letter, four denomination has a four prong tamgha on the obverse and three prong reverse.  The rays appear to be spaced like a mid number (8-9?) but are too much off center to be a good example. 

The rest of these followed me home because I liked the style or could count the rays (or they were priced reasonably).  Those interested can count and diagnose these but my mind has dropped the theories on mint identification.  IMO Soter Megas has some decent coins available to those who can forgive him not writing his name on them. 😀

Very nice selection, the 4-pronged examples are hard to find. I believe there is some recent work claiming that examples with 4 prongs are issues of Kujula Kadphises; as far as I know the argument for that remains unpublished, though, so for now I just consider them all issues of Vima Takto myself.

I don't think we have an Indo-Parthian thread, perfect time to start one. I'll show off the 3 main types you're likely to encounter:

The Bust/Nike type, with a generally well-executed bust on the obverse. This one is an issue of Pakores, fairly common but usually low grade

Coins with the same style as Indo-Scythian coinage; these always feature the "Gondopharid" tamgha, with a horse rider facing right or left, and one of several deities on the reverse. This is an issue of Abdagases, with a slightly debased obverse legend.

And Bust/Athena issues, continuing the same style as the Indo-Greeks. This is an issue of Gondophares; many kings issued these coins, but they're generally very poorly struck and barely legible so it's often difficult to attribute them.

There are also silver issues, but they're much more expensive and I haven't gotten one yet. Anyone else have any good Indo-Parthian? Post 'em here.

They have a very nice selection of Menander owl drachms, don't see these too often: https://numismatics.org/bigr/id/bigr.menander_i.3

1 hour ago, Spaniard said:

This guy/girl is doing it all the time and I'm only looking at the seller I buy a lot from....I won't mention the names at the moment but do you want to see one example?....

I could pile on a list of about 30 in the last 6 months if needed but this particular coin really passed me off as it was posted and bought within 5 mins....! It was a coin I really wanted and the price was good at 230....It's now at 695!!!

Just a part of the industry, unfortunately. I saw one drachm go from a vcoins store to 3 different auction houses in quick succession, starting out on sale for $500 and ending at the last auction house at $2400 with BP.

At this point, I assume it will take a month to ship and am pleasantly surprised when it's any faster. It is what it is, at least they get good coins. Won this HGC plate coin at their last sale

13 hours ago, Broucheion said:

Hi @velarfricative,

 

Thank you for the correction, it is very much appreciated. Two more follow-ups: Is the issue date correct? Is there a quick read to orient myself on this series (I know of  "Coinage of Hermaios & Imitations by Scythians" by R.C. Senior, but that's overkill for me).

- Broucheion

With coins like these, the date ranges aren't particularly meaningful, though it's probably somewhere in the ballpark of what you have listed. Coins in the name of Hermaios were issued from around 100 BC to the mid 1st century AD or later during the reign of Kujula Kadphises, though this one certainly falls on the earlier part of that range. The Senior book is probably the only place you'll get a detailed treatment of this, outside of that is Mitchiner's book from the 70s which is very out-of-date and Bopearachchi's book which is in French. Coinindia has a bunch listed, which is probably close to what you're looking for.