NathanB

3 hours ago, DLTcoins said:

I've had several discussions with Dr. Green on this topic. She is nothing if not enthusiastic. As far as I know, none of these finds have archaeological context. Some are almost certainly hoaxes.

On a similar note, dozens of Greek and Roman coin "finds" have been reported in the United States yet none have held up to scientific scrutiny (link below).

I'm not saying such things are impossible. Coin finds - in context - are how we have come to understand the vast extent of Viking trade, for example. I'm simply saying "prove it to me"...

Fun stuff to ponder! 

https://www.jstor.org/stable/2741739

Hi again DLTcoins--and thank you for the link! I will read it later, but I skim-read it, and also read the conclusion.

About Britain, though, I think the situation is quite different from the situation in the US. First, the main American states are surrounded by two massive oceans, and were not part of regular, established trading networks with the Mediterranean in antiquity.  That alone makes the situations as different as apples and oranges.  Second, the coins found in the US are ordinary Greek and Roman coins. 

On the other hand, Britain is very close to continental Europe, and was part of the Roman Empire, and before that, part of trading routes with the Phoenicians and the Greeks.  Well-known, well-established patterns of trade with the Mediterranean were in place there for many hundreds of years in antiquity, and those links are attested through archaeological and textual evidence.  Furthermore, as we have seen from some of the other links provided in the comments above, coins routinely traveled very far in antiquity from their original minting sites--if not as currency, then as talismans, collectibles, or souvenirs.  Why should the situation in the UK be any different?  So I don't really see any reasons to be skeptical of the fact that coins made journeys of enormous lengths within the established trading routes of the Mediterranean during the period of antiquity, and that some of these coins ended up in Britain.

In addition, the coins I am thinking about are Indo-Greek, Indo-Scythian, and Kushan coins.  Again, I just don't think there were that many careless collectors of these coins in 19th century Britain.  And while it's certainly possible that a small number of these finds should be discounted, it also seems reasonable to conclude that certain finds have a high probability of being ancient losses.

Finally, in the UK, many coins that we accept as being found in various places are not dug up in an archaeological context.  People find coin hoards using metal detectors, for example, and there is still evidence that we can read about how such coins were found, and where.

With the study of history, there are, as you likely know, "maximalist" and "minimalist" approaches to finds and even texts.  I certainly do think it's wrong to be too credulous, but I think refusing to believe much of anything as a kind of starting point, puts the cart before the horse by beginning with a conclusion that should have been achieved rather than simply asserted.  Overall, in many cases, one can't simply "prove it" regarding many of the phenomena of ancient history.  (As much as I share your desire for positive proof!) We have to weigh probabilities, in context--archaeological, historical, economic, and so on.  And I think in many cases that lines up to a reasonable conclusion that coins in antiquity could and often did travel great distances from their minting sites--again, not necessarily as currency (though that was often the case, as for Athenian tetradrachms and Roman denarii), but as interesting artefacts for "show and tell." 

On 6/20/2022 at 12:32 AM, Kaleun96 said:

You can use ANA's CoinHoards website to see maps of where the coins in a specific hoard were minted relative to where the hoard was found, e.g.
http://coinhoards.org/id/igch0134

Thank you, Kaleun; that is a great resource!  Thanks for the map, too: it shows me what the tool is capable of.  Very interesting stuff!

And equal praise to @Ed Snible and @rrdenarius!  Those are also great resources.  I am very much looking forward to using them.

Finally, my thanks to ValiantKnight, JayAg47, maridvnvm, Cordoba, and everyone else who contributed to this (at least to me!) very fascinating thread!

And @Romismatist, I love your coin! Definitely "heart eyes" for that one!

On 6/19/2022 at 10:42 PM, DLTcoins said:

I tend to think that the occasional find of an Indo-Greek or other early Indian coin in the UK has more to do with modern(ish) British involvement in Afghanistan and India than with ancient trade... lost Victorian-era pocket pieces, for example. Anything is possible, of course.

Hi DLTcoins! You bring up a very interesting point.  If you click on the link I provided (as maybe you have), you will see further links to the Portable Antiquities Scheme.  Of the four Menander coins in Britain, one is specifically said to be more likely to be a loss from post-antiquity--so this may be along the lines you suggest.  In another case, however, a find in the late 19th century of a Menander coin two feet underground seems likely to be an ancient loss rather than a modern one.  There are also another three Menander coins that are not listed in the PAS.  In addition, there are a number of Indo-Scythian coins, and Kushan coins, also. 

I tend to agree with the concluding remarks from Dr. Green's blog post linked to above:

Quote

 

The obvious question with all of these finds is whether they represent modern losses by tourists and collectors, or if they were instead ancient losses made during the Roman period or even before. Needless to say, it is difficult to reach a definite conclusion for most of these coins, and the hypothesis that some of them are modern losses is explicitly adopted in a few of the PAS records. However, we do need to be cautious here and there are reasons for thinking that a handful, at least, may be ancient losses. Perhaps the most persuasive argument here is provided by the Indo-Greek coin of Menander from Tenby, which was found in 1881 two feet under the ground:
 

The circumstances of the finding of the coin of Menander at Tenby, from 'An Inventory of the Ancient Monuments of Wales and Monmouthshire: VII - County of Pembroke' (London, 1925), which assumes that the coin was brought over in the first century AD and lost at that time.

In addition to this evidence for at least one of the coins probably having been a genuinely ancient loss, the following two points may be worth noting. First, that a significant number of pre-Roman Greek coins, including Carthaginian and Ptolemaic (Egyptian) issues, are also now known from Britain, and whilst some may be recent imports, others are thought likely to be ancient losses of at least the Roman era. Indeed, it is interesting to observe that the case has been made for at least a proportion of these coins having arrived here as a result of Mediterranean trade with pre-Roman Britain, a possibility that may be worth further consideration for at least some of the Indo-Greek coins listed above. Second, the PAS now has details of a significant number of these early Indian coins, and it might be wondered if the notion that they were all (except for the Tenby coin) modern losses might not seem slightly implausible, unless we are to assume that there were a surprisingly large number of careless Indian coin collectors present in nineteenth- and twentieth-century Britain? 

It's impossible to say anything with certainty, but I tend to think that there weren't such a large number of carless Indian coin collectors present in 19th and 20th century Britain.  😉

Quote

 

I've been wondering lately if there are any kind of resources that track how far away from their mints ancient Greek and Roman coins travelled in antiquity.  In particular, I'm thinking of the Indo-Greek king Menander.  I once read that Menander coins have been found as far away as the UK.  I decided to google this to find some details, and I did find a great site with excellent links and details.

So that is quite impressive: Menander's coinage was minted in the area of Afghanistan and Pakistan, and yet at least a few of his coins made their way in antiquity as far west as England and even Wales.  I think that's fascinating!  And we know, thanks to the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea, that some of Menander's coins were in use centuries later in the Gujarat area. And I seem to recall reading somewhere that some of Menander's coins have been found in Sri Lanka, which is also very interesting.

I'm wondering if any of Menander's coins have been found even farther afield than that--specifically east, such as China, southeastern Asia, and beyond--and in any other directions as well!  Can anyone help me with this?

And feel free to also supply anecdotes and information about this question in general, too--for ancient Greek and Roman coins, and not only for the coinage of Menander. How far away from their minting sites did these coins travel in antiquity?

On 6/16/2022 at 12:42 PM, LONGINUS said:

@NathanB, I must confess that I am Deacon Ray. I always enjoy the historical names that members select for their avatars, so I chose “Longinus” when I signed up for ”NVMIS FORVMS.” Longinus is a Roman soldier who was present at the Crucifixion of Jesus. He’s not named in but a few translations.

Also, many thanks for your kind words. At the beginning of June I was ready to resume my ancient coin collecting pursuits after a five month educational sabbatical. When I visited the old site, it was a ghost town but before too long, I started receiving emails from members inviting me to this great new site.

Hi Longinus/Deacon Ray! Ah-ha! So now I know why the art seemed to be the same! You have a real talent for digital presentation of ancient coins!  I definitely admire it.

Regarding the other site, I stopped posting there a long time ago, and so I missed all the fuss that caused so many people to migrate here.  I'm still not 100% certain of what happened, exactly.  (No need to explain--that's ok.) Anyway, I ended out getting an email sort of out of the blue that mentioned this site, and then I decided I'd try writing again--but this time, I'm staying clear of politics entirely! That can be very hard because ancient politics is a major part of ancient numismatics, and ancient politics intersect with modern politics.  But I will try to stay clear anyway.  

5 hours ago, LONGINUS said:

Great coin , @thenickelguy

 

This type has always been one of my favorites — most likely because it was among my first Seleucid coins.

Here are a few serrated and a few animals.

That's a really nice presentation, Longinus. Did you make it, or does it come from Deacon Ray, or is it from somewhere else? In any case, it looks great, and I like the animal organization of it.

Not the greatest photo (or coin, for that matter), but here's my Julian the Apostate:

It's one of my oldest photos (before I used my MF4/3 camera and the black velvet for the background), but I still like the reddish hue this coin has, as well as Julian's portrait, which carries through despite the lower grade.

I just wish that he had been able to live at least as long as those twenty year vows. 

Everyone is different, but I haven't found materials online to be anywhere near as useful to me as a new learner as books have been.  I'm the sort of person who needs some "hooks" to hang new concepts and information on.  And I like things organized systematically.  I want to see how such-and-such relates to such-and-such.  I find that books that are written for pedagogical purposes supply this systematic, conceptual framework that I need. I do know a number of numismatists with far more knowledge than I have argue that one doesn't need to rely on books very much (if at all), but I wonder if they aren't taking for granted the knowledge that they already possess--knowledge which probably came in (large) part from books.  Or, perhaps I'm just missing the best learner's websites online!

Having said that, I have at least seen some of the online material.  I find much of it to be very specialized, though not all, of course.

I agree with what others have said here about Sayles.  I read his Vol. 1 (3rd edition, if I remember correctly), and found it as a general introduction to ancient coin collecting to be very useful, notwithstanding that it is heavily dated (cf. his discussions of how "the internet" has changed the hobby).  Sayles offers a very good overview of the coins and the field of collecting them that beginners can do well to study.  

I began his second volume in his series--the one on Greek coins--many months ago, but life events put my numismatic learning on hold for a considerable amount of time.  I am going to resume now! What I can say, is this: if his Roman book is anything like his Greek book, it will be well, well worth the investment of your time and money.  I intend to read the full series.

Also, I can mention that if you contact him through Vcoins, you may be able to get a discount if you are ordering more than one volume.  And the prices there are quite reasonable to begin with.  I am happy to buy from Sayles' Vcoins store, and I recommend it to others.

As for Sear, I have his one volume book "Roman Coins and their Values."  This is a very concise catalogue that is intended to serve as a reference book.  By all means, buy one if you wish, but this is actually one area that I think the internet does considerably better, since Sears' work is, by necessity, leaving out so many coins.  Online, there are thousands more coins that are catalogued, with better photos, and current market prices.  As for good information about history and numismatics, Sears' work is not the right source for that.  It is a very concise catalogue, nothing more--though it is useful as a concise catalogue. 

I am aware that Sears has a 5 volume version.  I am interested in seeing it, but have not been able to get my hands on one yet.  

3 hours ago, sand said:

Thanks @NathanB

I remember, your nice words, about my avatar, on the other coin forum.

You're the only person, who has ever mentioned, my avatar.

I drew my avatar.

I've never explained my avatar.

I like, to let people, view my avatar, and see, what they may see.

I always see a full moon in the sky over sand dunes, and somehow I'm there.  And it's so tranquil. It's an incredibly beautiful scene. Well done!

@sand, this thread will be woefully lacking without a bit from you! You have perhaps my favourite avatar ever.

No not me.  It's the title of a nice little article by a metal detectorist.  I like his simple, understated narration of his experience, and wish I could have one like it.  (I just don't live on the right continent.)  Enjoy the article, and by all means, share any stories of your own!

Back in what seems a completely different life, I was teaching an academic writing class to a class of university students in east Asia. The textbook, which was chosen for me, had at the beginning of each chapter a picture of some sort of writing.  For the chapter on cause and effect essays, this was the image that graced that page:

It was love at first sight.  I had already been reading a massive amount of ancient Greek history, drama, and philosophy (all in translation), and had a deep appreciation for, and marvel of, so many of the literary productions of ancient Athens.

Aside from the history, and even the mythology (Athens and olives), the design was just so simple, and yet so absolutely beautiful, that I knew I had to own one.  That was back in about 2005 or 2006.  It wasn't until about 2018 that I decided to go for it.  I sold most of my collection of Canadian coins, many of my books and bought my pearl of great price:

My Athenian tetradrachm was, for monetary reasons, the only ancient coin I would own for many, many months, and is the only one far outside of my typical price range (about $40-$100 USD).  The above reverse image was the merchant's, and it's a great image of a coin I love (although it does tend to impart a gold-ish hue in places that are more silver-coloured in real life).

My collection, and my knowledge, have grown very much since that first purchase, but this coin is one that I will treasure always.

So you're looking into getting into ancient coin collecting?  Welcome!  In a way, I consider myself a good person to answer you because I am relatively new to ancients collecting myself--but I have a lot of experience with Canadian decimal coinage.  That experience has taught me a number of things. Where to start?  Perhaps I'll just go with a random list of points:

• don't commit too much money to purchases at this stage.  Read, look at pictures, talk to people, reflect on your own interests.  My story: I was teaching an academic writing textbook nearly twenty years ago. In it, each chapter began with a photograph of something with writing on it.  One chapter began with a picture of an Athenian Tetradrachm with the three letters A - TH - E (short for "Of the Athenians").  I fell in love right then, and knew I had to own one.  But it was more than 15 years until I could part with enough cash to buy one (my avatar). At this point, that's likely to be a once-in-a-lifetime purchase for me, unless the heavens open and rain gold down around me!  It's also my highest-grade coin, too.  Most of my coins cost only a fraction of that one.
• the old adage "buy the book before the coin" has great insight.  Nowadays, you don't necessarily need to buy a book, but I recommend not spending any very serious money until you have acquired some knowledge not only of coins, but also of how the market works.  At the most basic level, you don't want to buy fakes on eBay, for example.  Without knowledge, you may not know how to spot such fakes.  Your best option right now is to stick to reputable dealers, like those on Ma-shops or VCoins. Most offer a lifetime guarantee of authenticity. so it is usually safe to buy from them.
• notwithstanding the fact that so much knowledge is available on the internet, I would encourage you to build a small numismatic library.  I don't mean spending thousands of dollars on obscure books you will never read.  No: for now, just buy a few basic introductions to the field, whether that be Greek, Roman, Greek and Roman, or whatever.  I can recommend a few titles if you're interested, but that might be better as another post on its own.  At the beginning, just two or three books will go a long, long way to providing you with essential knowledge that you will need to enjoy your hobby and also to make good purchases.
• don't assume what you are doing is an investment.  Too many people do, and then become extremely upset when their treasures end up being bought by dealers at anywhere from 10% to 50% of what they paid for them (even without inflation being factored in!).  Many people try, but very few people make money in numismatics. No: buy what you want because you like it, because you want to learn something from it, because it brings you joy.  Don't buy thinking you are going to make money because you almost certainly won't.
• when you are buying, if you are thinking of resale value, beware of coins with significant flaws.  Of course, few ancient coins are going to be perfect, but some things will really stand out.  Unusual scratches, for example.  Porous surfaces are another thing you need to be very cognizant of.  A coin with good eye appeal, but which has bad surfaces, will eventually degrade over time.  The resale value of that coin will be less than it would be otherwise.  On the other hand, perhaps that's the only way you can afford to pick up a particular design or piece!  So that kind of thing works both ways.  Mostly, such problems present a liability, but on occasion, they can produce an opportunity.  Just be aware of them.
• grade isn't everything.  Of course we'd all love to find affordable hoards of MS70's!  But ancient coins as a field doesn't work that way.  Coins are rarely (compared to moderns, anyway), in mint state, for one thing.  If you can get a high-grade coin for a good price, and you like it, that's great.  But a well-worn coin can still have grace, eye appeal, and a very real charm of its own!  Your hard-earned dollars will go much farther if you downgrade (if you'll pardon the pun) your expectations from mint state to something like "Fine" or "Very Fine."
• go for eye appeal.  Even exempting all the really dirt-cheap ancient coins out there, there are so many ugly ancient coins, and we all have them.  But try to avoid them unless it's unavoidable.  You don't need to spend a fortune to get good design, executed well.  Late Roman Bronze (LRB's) are an excellent case in point, as many cost less than a fast food meal, as has already been pointed out here.  But this principle holds true for Greek coins, too.  Seleukid coins are particularly affordable.  A coin is more likely to speak to you if it is beautiful, even in a worn state. Let's say you can buy a particular kind of coin for as little as 5 Euros.  Let's say it's a common coin, meaning that you could easily find a coin with more detail, nicer surfaces, that sort of thing.  Maybe paying just 5 Euros more will get you a significantly better coin.  Go for that one, not the first one!  Or maybe you need to spend 40 Euros to get a really lovely example.  That might be worth it.  It might not.  But in general: avoid very cheap, ugly coins.
• it is received wisdom amongst many collectors that one should specialize in order to have a coin collection.  I completely disagree.  If you want to specialize: good for you! But if you don't, also, still, good for you!  Perhaps you are more interested in building a collection that showcases the diversity of ancient coinage rather than a collection of only one narrower area.  One of these approaches is not better than the other for each person.  You're the collector, so you get to make that call.
• The same goes for slabbed vs. unslabbed coins.  There is a lot of fundamentalism within the hobby over this very issue.  I'm more pragmatic: if you want your coins slabbed, then great. And if you don't, then also great.  You are collecting coins for you, not for others. That said, 99% of the affordable ancient coins will not be slabbed (even if one wanted to, it would not be cost-effective for most)
• try to figure out what motivates you as a person.  Is it the love of the designs themselves?  Is it about art history?  Or are you more into military or political history?  Are you attracted to one geographical area (e.g. Spain) over another (e.g. Thrace)?  Or are you interested in coins that have some connection with literature?  Whatever the case is, put your money where your interest is.
• The basic sub-fields of ancient collecting are:
  • Greek 
  • Roman Republic
  • Roman Imperial
  • Roman Provincial (formerly often called "Greek Imperial")
  • Byzantine
• many collectors write off the Greek category out of modestly ("I'll never understand that field!"), or because of price.  While Greek coins are pricier, in general, it is possible to buy many nice Greek coins at 30 Euros each.  I would encourage you to consider this field.  If you like it, great.  If not, well, there are many more fields to choose from! But don't pre-eliminate it.
• there is often better value to be found in the Roman Provincial category than in the Roman Imperial one.  Roman provincials can be extremely affordable.  You might get a nice, decent Augustus for 30 Euros, for example.  

I'll conclude with a couple of "postcard" type images of one Seleukid Greek coin, and one Roman Provincial coin. Neither one broke the bank!

Well, good luck in your collecting.

Ah-ha! It seems I'm back.  My thanks to @Severus Alexander for suggesting I come this way.

And before I proceed, I note that in an effort to be a new and improved NathanB, I will attempt to avoid politics almost completely, and to concentrate on the coins themselves, ancient texts that speak of them, and the joys that come of discussing those things here with you all.

There are some really nice Seleukids here!  Very nice, very expensive--at least to me.  Of course I'd love to own them!  I'll start with my worst one, both in terms of the coin itself, and also the photo of it (one of my very first):

Above: Antiochus II. AE 16 mm, 3.42 g. It may not be pretty, but it's mine! 

Quite some time after taking the above picture, I was able to learn some tips from a number of good people over at CT (some of whom are here).  The next photos are a step up.

I do truly love the green patina on this "bottlecap" coin of Antiochus VI:

Above: Antiochus VI. Serrate AE 22 mm, 7.52 g.

Here's another Seleukid, but the image is much smaller--it's a snip of an image, actually:

Above: Demetrios I Soter. Serrate AE 19.8 mm , 7.2 g.

I find the above coin rather interesting because the portrait is so small compared to the size of the flan. The fact that it's so off-center accentuates that.

Below is another coin with a lovely green patina:

Above: Demetrios I Soter. Serrate AE 16, 4.04 g.

And apparently I don't have enough Demetrios I Soter's in my life, so...

Above: Demetrios I Soter again--Serrate AE 20 mm, 6.48 g.

I think I've saved the best of Mr. DIS for the last.  As some of you know, I am very much a beginner at coin photography, but I was really very happy with my picture of another bottlecap coin below--and it's a rather large one:

Above: Demetrios I Soter. Serrate AE 25 mm, 14.56 g.

And it's worth pointing out that this is a common coin.  It is a very large and heavy coin, but it's nothing special in terms of grade, surfaces, and so on.  But I had such fun when I was taking the above pictures!

But enough of Demetrios I Soter.  Below, we see a coin from a usurper:

Above: Alexander II Zabinas. Serrate AE 17 mm, 6.68 g.

Finally, I also have one Seleukid coin that I have not been able to identify as to which Seleucus it is from:

Above: Seleucus, but which one?  (AE 16 mm, 4.9 g.)

I actually do have a few recently-arrived unphotographed Seleukid coins.  A few of them are from one of the earliest step-[insert-Samuel L Jackson's favourite on-screen word here]'s in history.  There's a well-known story in Plutarch and a number of very famous paintings that take their inspiration from that story, but I think that will be a few pairs of photos for another time. 

On another note, why the Seleukids?  Short answer: they're cheap as--well, you know what!  I think the value you get as a collector for your hard-earned dollars is really on the high end with so many of the Seleukids.  Aside from being excellent value for your dollar, they are also from a dynasty that oversaw one of the most ethnically diverse kingdoms that came out of the aftermath of Alexander.  The western borders of the kingdom at its height nearly took in Macedon itself, and probably would have if it weren't for the untimely assassination of Seleucus I by Ptolemy Ceraunus. To the east, it reached up to what is now Afghanistan and Pakistan.  The Bactrian and Indo-Greek kingdoms there were direct offshoots from the Seleukid one, and they have their own fascinating histories--and, of course, coins! 

--

UPDATE: Does anyone know how I can delete the few photos that keep showing up at the end of my post?  I've tried deleting them several times over, and they keep showing up anyway.