Sulla80

PAMPHYLIA. Perge. Trebonianus Gallus, 251-253. Diassarion (Bronze, 21 mm, 5.79 g, 11 h). ΑΥ•Κ Γ•ΟΥЄΙ•ΤΡЄ•ΓΑΛΛΟΝ Laureate, draped and cuirassed bust of Trebonianus Gallus to right, seen from behind; below, globe. Rev. ΠЄPΓAIΩN Three-legged chest with folding doors, with three money purses upon it. RPC IX 1119. SNG von Aulock 4714.

11 hours ago, Victrix said:

Bought this encrusted Gallienus ant for a cleaning project. First time I attempted to clean a coin and the result is quite good 😄. 

I would call that amazing - well done.  not "over-cleaned", "scraped", ""brushed", looks very nice from your photo!

I enjoy this one not only for the perspective and for the eagle countermark

Roman Provincial Coins, Commagene. Zeugma. Philip I the Arab (244-249). Ae 30mm, 15.22g

Obv: AVTOK K M IOVΛI ΦΙΛΙΠΠOC CЄB, laureate, draped and cuirassed bust right; c/m: eagle standing right(?), head left within incuse oval.
Rev: ZЄVΓMATЄΩN, tetrastyle temple atop hill, containing seated figure facing, with structures at base of hill and up either side; in exergue, capricorn right.
Ref: RPC - (unassigned; ID 8189); Butcher 34; BMC 42; for c/m: Howgego Greek Imperial Countermarks 340.

Butcher also notes: "Like most of the other coinages of northern Syria during this period, the issues for Philip at Zeugma probably had their origin at Antioch. A larger and more complete range of denominations is known than for the other cities of northern Syria with which Zeugma shares dies. Zeugma shares obverse dies with Antioch, Samosata, Cyrrhus, Hierapolis, and Philippopolis in Arabia. "

Butcher, Coinage of Roman Syria

On 3/28/2024 at 10:50 PM, rishi7887 said:

How much can one expect on selling a Bohemond 3 Antioch silver denier, NGC certified XF ?

The good news is that you can find some real bargains (1/2 off) on EBay

(Caveat emptor)

Wow - a fun coin @David Atherton, AVGST & RIC reference!  That certainly seems to fall in the category of impossible to acquire.   I just added a coin from your Flavian family, a Vespasian denarius from Ephesus not a great rarity - I like the variety of portraits.  This coin #5 in a little sub-collection.

https://www.sullacoins.com/post/coins-of-vespasian-from-ephesus

6 hours ago, Heliodromus said:

I think much of the limitations of these models as applied to images of ancients is just due to lack of coin image training data, although it also depends on how exactly they are handing image inputs. I expect it is basically just image classification on parts of the image, meaning that it is mapping parts of the image to a fixed set of categories it was trained on, which is similar to how Telsa's vision system works. If a Tesla sees a train crossing at a junction it perceives it as a sequence of trucks since it wasn't trained on trains, and the best match for each carriage is a truck (one reason why I would never use "self-driving" in one of these!).

Claude's image recognition still seems quite impressive, but of course we're not privvy to what it was trained on, so hard to tell where image classification ends and intelligence in interpreting the pieces kicks in. Was Claude trained on stick figures in canoes, I wonder? It certainly handled this one I just drew well!

As far as recognizing specific emperors or devices on coins, it's going to depend on how well, if at all, these were represented in it's training data.

I think my experiment with Claude, using a coin of Constantine, was more successful because in that case Claude was able to read the obverse legend, hence realize it was Constantine, then bring a bunch of textual knowledge of coins of Constantine to bear. Although Claude didn't recognize the reverse design immediately, once I gave a clue it was able to guess correctly then again use textual information related to that to further describe/guess the scene. It's all a bit smoke and mirrors perhaps, giving an impression of more vision capability than is actually there, which would be massively improved by more coin image training data.

I agree with you : a specialized "language model", trained with images from coins and text from coins should do well to recognize and attribute coins.  I suspect that any of the general purpose LLMs won't perform particularly well at ancient coins.  However, if I don't like what they do today, I just have to wait a few minutes and a better one is coming....love the stick figure example!

I haven't pulled this one out for a while! Appollodotus - Elephant & Zebu!

1 hour ago, ominus1 said:

...Terrence, this is Stupid stuff'...a e housman mentions him...dandy silver coin!...i've a bronze type...:)

Mithridates, his father poisoned, didn't want to end up the same: "There was a king reigned in the East...he gathered all that sprang to birth from the many-venomed earth...he sampled all her killing store...they put arsenic in his meat...they poured strychnine in his cup — I tell the tale that I heard told.Mithridates, he died old."  (abbreviated text from AE Houseman, Terrence, This Is Stupid Stuff)

A beautiful coin @CassiusMarcus.  I have his likeness here on a coin of Cappadocia - a reminder to anyone interested that Ariarathes IX had a powerful father that you should not provoke.

https://www.sullacoins.com/post/a-father-s-support

4 hours ago, Ed Snible said:

The industrial revolution was good for people.  Jobs for horses still haven't recovered.  I am sure new kinds of work will open up, but will those jobs go to humans or machines?

yet somehow today we have twice as many horses in the US today compared to 1840

• According to the Census returns of 1840, there were in the United States 4,335,669 horses and mules
• There are 7.2 million horses in the United States, according to 2016 survey data published by the American Horse Council

(Edit: worth acknowledging several sources report that horse population in the US did peak ~25M circa 1920-25)

On 3/30/2024 at 1:01 PM, Heliodromus said:

Claude-3 was by far the best, and right off the bat knew it was a bronze roman coin, knew the obverse was a male bust, and (rather surprisingly) was able to read the legend, which it knew was in Latin, and correctly concluded it was a coin of Constantine! The reverse legend was only partially legible, but it made out parts of it out, and when I provided some clues about legend and design it was able to correctly guess the partially legible legend and relate it to the design.

Epimetheus opening Pandora's box, print,  Giulio Bonasone (Italian, active Rome and Bologna, 1531–after 1576), an engraving published in Providence. Public Domain image with thanks the to the NY Metropolitan Museum of Art; MET, 64.682.102.

An interesting thread / discussion, @Heliodromus and a topic that is hard to avoid these days with both interesting promise and rational fears.  I posted some examples/screen shots of my experiences with ChatGPT 4.0 and Claude 3 Opus for coin identification and legend reading here:

https://www.sullacoins.com/post/numismatics-generative-ai

Overall I found ChatGPT to be more credible in its answers - and both tools still far from reliable or useful resources.  I am interested to hear of any relevant published literature, and any work on a numismatic large language models that might be built specifically on auction databases for attribution, die studies, fraud detection, et.c.

Roman Provincial Coin, Moesia Inferiior, Tomis. Gordian III with Tranquillina (238-244). Ae Tetrassarion.
Obv: AVT K M ANT ΓOPΔIANOC AVΓ CЄ / TPANKVΛΛЄINA. Draped busts of Gordian, laureate and cuirassed, and Tranquillina, wearing stephane, facing one another.
Rev: MHTPO ΠONTOV TOMEΩC. Hera standing left, holding sceptre and patera; Δ (mark of value) in field to left.
Ref: RPC VII.2 1692; AMNG 3517–8.

Next: a large AE coin

This one had a pretty decent photo from the seller:

although color in hand is more like my photo - the original a bit overexposed:

Italy- Sicily.  AE Hexas, 20mm, 8.63g, of Akragas (Agrigentum), circa 425-406BCE, obverse; eagle standing right, wings spread, a dead hare in its talons, reverse; a crab, beneath which two tunny fishes right, two pellets in field, to left and to right, S-1024

Price 1813 - Kolophon mint. AR Drachm struck circa 310-301 BC under Antigonos I Monophthalmos as Strategos of Asia, 320-306/5 BC, or king, 306/5-301 BC

11.Elymais

https://www.sullacoins.com/post/wabi-sabi-embracing-imperfection

21 Thrace (Odrysian Kingdom) - again a technically, but arguably re-formed under Seuthes III 323/322 BC

https://www.sullacoins.com/post/seuthes-iii

Impressive stuff - this is not your ordinary "uncleaned Roman coins" - I can't make out the legend on the bottom right coin but I think it reads "CAVEAT EMPTOR AVG"

KINGS of MACEDON. Kassander. As Regent, 317-305 BC, or King, 305-298 BC. AR Tetradrachm. In the name and types of Philip II. Amphipolis mint. Struck circa 307-297 BC. Laureate head of Zeus right / Youth on horseback right, holding palm frond; below, Λ above torch; oK monogram below raised foreleg.

It's March and my bracket is doing well - so perhaps I have an excuse for seeing basketballs everywhere:

including this coin where Caracalla offers to his brother a way to decide ownership of the globe.

1 hour ago, David Atherton said:

Probably this one as Caesar under Titus. 

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=156227

They really don't come much better than that. I think it's no accident it's provenanced to a portrait painter.

That is a stunning portrait! Thanks for sharing.

On 3/22/2024 at 9:59 PM, DonnaML said:

If anyone has any bright ideas for identifying this object, please let me know. Maybe that will inspire me to finally finish the writ

Hi Donna, your coin is quite lovely.  As for teh stray line, it doesn't make sense to me that anything could extend from the end of the scabbard (and I there is little doubt that tow soldiers presenting sword would wear scabbards) I think this line is the work of a bleary eyed mint worker thinking the end of the scabbard was a hand and putting a short scepter in hand.  There is some possibility (however remote) that he intended a broken arrow or spear lodged in the background behind the soldier on the right or stuck in his boot.

Here is my example sans line /arrow

Obv die match in Schaefer...

Re: Backlog

I do tend to process coins as they arrive - although write-ups can take a while to get to (days to months).  I have a few coins in perpetual limbo...that will be traded, given away or sold before they ever earn a write-up of their own.  A pile went to two sellers recently and are working their way through auction listing processes. The siglos is one that I thought I might eventually try to chase down as it is annotated as "ex collection A.G. van der Dussen".

13 minutes ago, Roman Collector said:

Link: deity holding a big palm branch.

Faustina II, 147-175 CE.
Roman Æ as, 9.72 g, 25.7 mm, 5 h.
Rome, early 148-March 149 CE.
Obv: FAVSTINAE AVG PII AVG FIL, bare-headed and draped bust, right (Beckmann Type 1 hairstyle).
Rev: HILARITAS S C, Hilaritas standing right, adjusting veil and holding long palm.
Refs: RIC 1396b; BMCRE 2151-52; Cohen 115; RCV 4725.

Link: holding palm branch

Vespasian, Alexandria, Tetradrachm, Nike with palm and wreath

This coin with an interesting portrait of Hadrian - looking almost clean shaven..."Liberalitas coin types attest to occasions when the emperor has displayed his generosity towards the people by a distribution to them, in money, provisions, or both. The first mention of Liberalitas was on coins of Hadrian. It was a type frequently repeated by the succeeding emperors. Indeed these instances of imperial generosity are more carefully recorded on coins than they are by history."

-FORVM Ancient Coins: Liberalitas

Hadrian, 117-138. Denarius (Silver, 19 mm, 3.66 g, 6 h), Rome, circa late 120-121. IMP CAESAR TRAIAN HADRIANVS AVG

Obv: Laureate head of Hadrian to right.

Rev: P M TR P COS III / LIBERAL AVG / III Hadrian seated left on curule chair set on platform, extending his right hand toward citizen standing right, holding out fold of toga.

Ref: BMC 291. Cohen 908. RIC 308.

compare

7 hours ago, DonnaML said:

Next, another coin depicting Roma on the reverse.

@DonnaML, your RR anonymous denarius with Roma (Cr. 287/1) ranks near the top of my favorites for it's design.

Here's a Romae Aeternae from Mediolanum of Aurelian (2.8g, 21mm) with Roma seated on the reverse from around 273 AD.

Next: More Roma....

The two sestertii sitting closest to me (a Gordian and a Lucilla) weigh 22 and 20g respectively, and the 17g Tetradrachm is a nice coin, but nothing quite like a 26g Domitian Sestertius.  Congrats on your latest addition. @dougsmit's web page on die matches, mentions how dies and portraits become familiar over time..

"The single most powerful tool in recognizing die matches is a familiarity the student develops with the coins being studied. Known dies become familiar 'faces' and require only confirmation by checking the minor points."

-Doug Smith, Die Identification Techniques

Do you have a favorite die or portrait for Domitian?