Hrefn

I agree with the observation that there is more than one market.  I recently bought an Armenian tram of King Hetoum and Queen Zabel.

Price on this coin including fees, postage, etc. was 34 Euro.  This is interesting because I purchased the same type coin from a dealer in France sometime before 1973, as one of my first overseas purchases.  The price was 70 francs, which was about $14.  Adjusted for inflation, that 14 dollars would be equivalent to 97 dollars in 2024.  Conclusion:  this coin is substantially less expensive than it was 50 years ago.  

On the other hand I find coins within my primary areas of collecting interest, which would be Byzantine gold and Migration era coins, have increased substantially in price.  Some of this increase is due to the increased price of gold,  which is up eightfold over the past 24 years.  My purely subjective impression that there is, also, increased interest in Migration era coins.  The best chance of acquiring one is when it is incorrectly attributed.  The latest additions to this tray were listed by the auctioneers as ordinary products of the imperial mint at Constantinople.  

My newest area of interest is Carolingian coins, and I have not been collecting these long enough to have a sense of their change in price over time.  High grade bronzes of the Tetrarchy and Constantinian era do seem to be getting more expensive.  
My observation is that over my collecting lifetime, as a general rule, high grade coins increase in price more rapidly than low grade coins do.  Since coins are a poor investment vehicle (in my humble opinion; and due to their very limited market, high transaction costs, and lack of fungibility,) I would never urge a new collector to focus on price appreciation anyway.  Except for this single consideration;  if you have the opportunity to purchase an exemplary coin in outstanding condition, remember that it is unlikely to become more affordable to you over time.  
 

I would not like to see a plea for some Abbasid coins go unanswered.  These are my contributions.  Both coins have been posted before.

The first coin is a dinar of al-Rashid 786-809 AD of year 185 AH, (801-802 AD) citing Ja’far as governor of Egypt on the reverse.    Haroun al Rashid was caliph contemporaneously with Charlemagne, who sent al Rashid an emissary recorded as “Isaac the Jew.”  The Caliph sent the Emperor gifts including an elephant which arrived in Aachen in 802 AD.   The vendor of this coin was not recorded.

The second coin is a multiple dinar of the last Abbasid caliph, al-Musta’sim 1242-1258 AD, of 645 AH (1247-8 AD) MWI 266.  This coin’s mass is 13.22 grams, exactly 3 times the mass of the theoretical dinar of 4.4 grams which equaled the Byzantine Solidus.  Of the 18 specimens on Zeno, this outweighs them all.  https://www.zeno.ru/showgallery.php?cat=5605   Triton XX had an example which was 14.77 grams, and I have heard they range up to 20 grams, but coins that size must be rare. Minted in the capitol, Medinat-as-Salam (Baghdad).  In 1258 AD, the Mongols sacked the city and executed al-Musta’sim.  Various stories are told of his death, including his being wrapped in a carpet and trampled by an elephant, to avoid shedding royal blood.  Purchased in Boston in the early 1990’s from an unrecorded seller.

6 hours ago, Rand said:

Mint in Rome had a long tradition of being controlled/influenced by the Senate, before and long after - well into the Papal period.

True. Although the historical continuity between the Roman Senate at the time of the Gothic Wars, and that of the High Middle Ages, would be a fascinating investigation.  

AR grosso of Rome in the name of the Senate and People of Rome, AD 1256-65

Obverse:  +SENATUS . P.Q.R.

Reverse:  +ROMA CAPUT MUNDI

24 minutes ago, Victor_Clark said:

 

The Diocletian is from Ticinum

Thank you, @Victor_Clark.  All corrections gratefully accepted.  

From Trier here are two large folles, of Diocletian and Constantine.  And two solidi, of Valens and Gratian.

@DLTcoins many thanks.  I am happy the coin is of Timur.  It was an impulse buy in an area of collecting which was mostly unknown to me.  Money well spent as my winning bid was only 8 euros.

I am resurrecting this post because I won a coin attributed by the auction house, Aquila Numismatics, to Timur.  The coin weighs 6 grams.  One side has the inscription framed by a doubled banded heptagon, or possibly an octagon, with concave edges.  The other side has what I believe to be the Kalima in square Kufic script, surrounded by a beaded boarder.  Sorry about the slightly green tint.  The coin itself is silver and probably a tanka.  

My only reference for the period is Mitchiner’s The World of Islam, published in 1977.   I haven’t found an exact match for my coin, although the design is similar to tankas of Timur’s successor Shah Rukh, especially the square Kalima.  They are similar enough to suggest we are in the general area, though.  Here they are in Mitchiner:

The auction house description of my coin reads ”TIMURID: Timur, 1370-1405, AR tanka Halab, DM, A-2386D, same style as the Timurid tankas struck in Dimashq in AH803; this is first known Timurid tanka of the mint at Halab (Aleppo), conquered and heavily destroyed by Timur at the end of October 1400 (Rabi' | 803), attractive VF, RRRR. The Timurid forces entered Halab on 30 October 1400 and massacred much of the population. The mint at Aleppo was closed and only reopened about 814/815. A few weeks later, Dimashq surrendered without opposition and produced silver tankas and double tankas in the name of Timur dated AH803. The Timurid forces abandoned Syria later in 803, and ordinary Mamluk coinage in the name of Faraj resumed at Dimashq by AH804. In our estimate, there are about 10 to 15 examples known of the Timurid tankas Dimashq but only this one piece for Halab. 6,01g. 24,1mm.”

By a strange coincidence, Steve Album recently auctioned a coin with an identical auction description.  The coin is similar but not identical.  Here it is from ACSearch;  the reverse is rotated as compared with my coin above:  (Not my coin)

This is clearly not the same type as mine.    Unfortunate.  As this coin hammered for $2600.

Continued perusal of Timurid tankas on ACSearch yielded this:  (not my coin)

The three annulets or circles in the center of the obverse inscription seem to me to be common on coins issued by Timur.  I cannot convince myself that my coin shares these.   This coin has no dotted boarder around the Kalima.  And, the heptagon (octagon?) is a close but only approximate match with significant differences.  This coin is attributed to the city of Shaik Abu Ishaq, also Kaserun.  

The imperfect strikes on both coins, and my extremely rudimentary Arabic are preventing me from going further.  Any assistance would be gratefully appreciated.  

@David Atherton I wish I had advice to offer.  I believe @JeandAcre was reacting to my expression of sympathy.  Importation of antiques greater than 100 years old are exempt from US Customs duties, so the delay makes no sense at all.  

 “Dragons are the final test of heroes.”  J.R.R. Tolkien

Two coins cleaned by the above author purchased by me last year, 2023.   I am very happy with them both.  

In the late 1800’s one can see a curious intellectual school of thought called cultural nationalism become generalized in Europe.  It manifested in art and architecture when artists and craftsmen looked to the past, and sometimes to the romanticized and imagined past, for inspiration.  In Norway, this was called Dragestil, or Dragon-style.  

Using both genuine medieval post-Viking era prototypes, and imagined Viking motifs, the silversmiths of the era in Scandinavia crafted a number of beautiful objects.  Many of these were spoons, often today labeled baptism or christening gifts.  I have no idea if that is what their intended function was, and I would be curious to hear from anyone who has some knowledge of the national customs of the time to corroborate this.  

Most of these spoons were produced between 1880 and the first two decades of the twentieth century, in Norway and Copenhagen.  After that, they must have fallen out of favor, superseded by Art Nouveau styles championed by smiths like George Jensen.  They are not Viking era pendants, but they are an interesting cultural phenomenon of people respecting and recalling that era of their past.  

While there is no scale in this picture, these are large spoons probably averaging 45 grams each.  

Some of these are reposts, so feel free to skip over this post.

From the left, the first is a coin of  Louis  IX of France.

1).  Saint Louis IX (25 April 1214 – 25 August 1270 AD.)   Europe’s first gros tournois, a large coin of highly refined silver, struck circa 1266-1270 AD. Some luster remaining.  Ciani 181.  

Obv:  cross, légende intérieure : + LVDOVICVS. REX

légende extérieure : + BNDICTV: SIT: NOmE: DHI: nRI: DEI: IhV. XPI, (ponctuation par trois besants superposés).

Traduction: (Louis roi ; Que le nom de notre seigneur Jésus-Christ soit béni). 

Rev:  TURONIS CIVIS. 

Purchased from Alex Malloy 6/1989 

The second is a gros of Bohemond VI. 

2).  Bohemund VI of Tripoli   1251-75 AD.   He was knighted in Acre by St. Louis IX, married Sybilla of Armenia, daughter of King Hetoum bringing peace between Armenia and Tripoli, and assisted the Armenians and the Mongols in the capture of Aleppo and Damascus in 1260 AD.  Antioch was lost to Baybars during his reign, in 1268AD.  

Obv:  Cross.  BOEMVNDVS COMES.

Rev:  Star. CIVITAS TRIPOLI.    Purchased 3/1993 from Andy Singer

The third is of Bohemond VII

3).   Bohemund VII of Tripoli 1275-87 AD.   OBV:  Cross. SEPTIMVS BOEMVNDVS COMES. Rev:  CIVITAS TRIPOLIS SYRIE.  Bohemond VII spent much of his reign at war with the Templars and the Genoese.  He left no known legitimate children.  This gros was the same weight as the French gros tournois.  It was the last Crusader coin struck in the Holy Land.  Tripoli was lost to the Mamluks in 1289, two years after his death.     Purchased from Stephen Huston circa 1989

the fourth is of Charles of Anjou.   We are passing a bit beyond the time of Baybars, but I think the progression of design of the gros tournois is interesting.

4).  Robert d’Anjou, Kingdom of Naples, Sicily and Jerusalem, although Jerusalem had been out of Western hands for about a century by this time.   This coin is also called a gigliato.  1309-1343 AD.   Obv: HONOR REGIS IUDICIUM DILIGIT    Rev: ROBERT DEI GRA IERL ET SICIL REX.  The honor of the king delights in justice.  Psalm 98:4 Vulgate.  Purchased from Stephen Huston 

the fifth is of Peter, King of Cyprus

Kingdom of Cyprus, Peter I. 1359-1369 AD.   His reign was the acme of military power of the Cypriot Kingdom.  His martial nature is well illustrated on this coin.  I believe he was the only Cypriot king to be depicted holding a sword on his coins.   He was successful in gaining a foothold on mainland Asia Minor by taking Antalya, he assisted the Armenians against the Turks, and briefly conquered Alexandria in Egypt, but was unable to persuade his army to continue on to Cairo.   Purchased from Andy Singer 8/1989

At the time of the battle of Ain Jalut in 1260, the throne of Armenia was occupied by King Hetoum I and his wife Zabel.  King Hetoum had married his daughter to Bohemond VI.  

6).   Armenia, tram, Hetoum I and Zabel, Sis mint.  Ag                 

Obv, the two monarchs holding a long cross between them

Rev, an crowned lion rampant with a long cross.    Biga numismatics, auction 26 #644

As noted above, Armenia and Tripoli had allied with (or accepted the suzerainty of) the Mongols, and actively assisted them in their wars against the Mamelukes of Egypt.  The Mongol general who was operating in the area was Kitboga, who was himself a Nestorian Christian.  

Here is a coin of Kaykhasru II, the Seljuk sultan who unsuccessfully resisted the initial Mongol incursion into Asia Minor.  

7).  Seljuks of Rum, Ghiyath al-Din Kay Khusraw II AR Dirham. Siwas mint, unclear date, AH 639(?) = AD

Lion advancing to right, crescent and three stars around; personification of sun above / Name and title in four lines; mint and date in outer margins. Album 1218; cf. Broome 272, type D(ii). 3.00g, 22mm, 5h.

Ex Roma Numismatics Ltd., E-Sale 98, 16 June 2022, lot 1844.

Kay Khusraw II resisted the initial incursion of the Mongols under general Baiju.  He assembled a large army which included Christian allies from Georgia (one of his wives was a Georgian princess) and Frankish mercenaries.  Baiju also had a contingent of Georgian troops who had submitted to the Mongols.  

The battle of Köse Dag was fought in 1243.  Kaykhusraw divided his forces and sent 20,000 inexperienced troops toward the Mongols, perhaps in an attempt to soften them up before his main assault.  These troops fell for the classic Mongol deception, the feigned retreat.  They were drawn out, encircled, and annihilated.  At this, many of the Seljuk commanders including the Sultan fled the field, Kay Khusraw preserving his harem and his treasury, but leaving his leaderless army to sauve qui peut.

Many Seljuk possessions then fell to the Mongol army, including Sivas and Kayseri.  

(Sivas was the ancient city of Sebaste, a Byzantine city until peacefully ceded to the Armenians, who populated it, by Emperor Basil II who died in 1025.  In 1059 Sebaste became the first major city in Asia Minor to fall to the invading Turkish tribes who thoroughly burned the city, took many slaves, and massacred the inhabitants.  Ironic that its conquerors should endure the same fate less than two centuries later.  Sebaste was also the episcopal see of St. Blasius who was martyred in one of the last major Roman persecutions in 316.  Saint Blasius was mentioned on another thread.

Kayseri was the old city of Caesarea in Cappadocia.  The Seljuk forces of Alp Arslan took the city in 1067, destroying it and slaughtering the inhabitants, in the run-up to the great Turkish victory at Manzikert in 1071 over Romanus.)

Kay Khusraw II barely managed to keep his throne as a Mongol vassal.  Armenia and Tripoli allied themselves with the Mongols and participated in the conquest of Aleppo and Damascus.  The chronicler the Templar of Tyre recorded the entrance of the three Christian princes, the Mongol Kitboga, the King of Armenia, and Bohemund VI riding together into captured Damascus in 1260.    

The defeat of the Seljuks probably influenced the decision of the Armenians and the Franks in Tripoli to throw in their lot with the Mongols.  But even before the fall of Damascus the bulk of the Mongol forces had returned East due to internal conflicts in their empire.  Which set the stage for their defeat by Baybars at Ain Jalut later in 1260.

We still need a Mongol coin in here.

8).  A coin of Abaqa

Ilkhanid Persia dinar of the Tabriz mint, of Abaqa Khan 1265-1282 AD.  His mother was a Nestorian Christian, and his wife was the illegitimate daughter of the Byzantine emperor Michael VIII.   Dated AH 677. Album 2126.  The Mongolian script says “Pure gold struck by the order of the Abaqa in the name of the Khagan,” according to the website Mongoliancoins.com   Purchased from William Warden 11/6/1999 

Eleven years after Ain Jalut, the English Prince Edward arrived in Acre (Akko) with the small Ninth Crusade.  He attempted to ally with the Mongols against Baybars, sending an embassy to Abaqa.  A relatively small  Mongol force of 10,000 cavalry was sent and achieved some success.  But the territorial gains were temporary and soon recovered by the Mamelukes.  

A note to @JeandAcre:  I think white nationalism is a faulty lens through which to view the history of the Crusading era, since nations as such did not exist, and people did not think in those terms.  Nor was there any concept of a white/nonwhite racial divide.  Baybars had blue eyes.  The elite of the time clearly married readily across cultural lines without hesitation so far as we can tell.  One’s religious beliefs were far more important than skin tone.  

One final note.  When Kitboga was brought before Baybars, Kitboga derided the Sultan, proudly saying he (Kitboga) had always been faithful to his masters, while Baybars had been treacherous to his.  Baybars then had him executed.  

@Valentinian, your points are well taken.  The coin market is not homogeneous.  Some coins are cheaper in nominal dollars than they were 30 years ago.  Many are cheaper in inflation-adjusted dollars compared with their price 30 years ago.  Since 1994 the US dollar has lost half its purchasing power.  So if I paid $50 for a coin in 1994, I might expect to pay $100 for a similar coin now.  It appears to have increased in price, but actually the dollar of 2024 is only half the dollar of 1994.  Every coin which hasn’t doubled in price over 30 years is actually cheaper now than it was in 1994.  

There may also be selection bias on my part.  I am more picky than I was 30 years ago, and that may be causing me to focus on higher value coins, which are naturally more expensive.  I think this is true.  But it does not explain the increase in market value of coins I have already purchased.  And it seems to me that the expensive coins I bought in the past have increased in price more than the common ones.  

I suspect one of the factors behind the perceived price increase is the gold price.  The dollar price of gold has increased fivefold since its 1994 high of $400/ Troy ounce.  That is enough to drive up the price of many coins which were trading close to their gold value.  Common Byzantine solidi would be a good example. 

@Curtis JJ here is the coin of Michael.  Yours is clearly Nicephorus.  A type I have yet to acquire.

Histamenon nomisma, AV. Michael VII Ducas.  1071-78 AD.  from Roma e-sale 110 lot #1716. 03 August 03 2023

“My research has impressed on me just the sheer volume of coins that have been sloshing around the market for decades… and centuries.”  @Curtisimo, I would like to hear your impressions of the number and types of coins which have been in the market over time.  (Perhaps in some future thread, if you are so inclined.). There has been some curiosity expressed on this forum as to the number of various types of coins to be found, and about the number of collectors who specialize in various niches of the coin collecting universe.  My own completely anecdotal impression is that there are many fewer collectors than one might first suspect, at least when thinking of collectors of Ancients and Medieval coins.   If there are few collectors, would that not make the coins appear more common as they cycle through the market?

To illustrate, suppose there are 25,000 avid collectors of Carolingian deniers.  Numerous types of these coins have survived to the present in numbers of 50 or less.  If a choice specimen comes on the market, it will promptly be bought and disappear into a collection.  The coin will appear scarce because hardly anyone gets to see one, and they are off the market before you can blink.

Now, suppose there are only 10 collectors of Carolingian deniers.  Coins will languish on the market.  They may be passed from auction to dealer to auction, may suffer the fate of being an unsold lot, the supply exceeds the demand so the coin type appears to be always available.  Everyone who wants one already has one.  

In both cases, the number of coins is the same.  If there’s many collectors, the coins appear scarce;  if there are few, the coins appear more common.  The coins are on the market longer and more frequently because no one wants them.  This again raises the question of how many collectors are there?  Is the number greater or less than at various times in the past?  

We live in an age when most newly discovered coins are not immediately melted for bullion.  Somehow, legally or illegally, the coins make their way to the numismatic marketplace, to join the great slosh (if you will.  It’s a vivid image).  All other things being equal, the increase in supply should lead to lower prices, and we see this with hoard coins.  But overall prices seem to rise.  So is the number of collectors growing, leading to more competition and higher prices?  I sure wish we knew the answers to some of these questions.  

Tancred Monophthalmos.

As it happens, today February 3rd is the feast day of Saint Blasius, the patron saint of Ragusa/Dubrovnik, who is featured on @Curtisimo’s coin above.  

Solidi of Maurice Tiberius from Constantinople.  Some attribute the broad-faced portraits to Antioch, but aside from the larger portrait, the style and lettering look identical to me.  Both from Harlan Berk, 3/1992 left and 6/1990 on the right.  

Solidi from Carthage.  The Obverse legend ends in the indiction year.

On the left, Sear-548, DO 220.  Purchased from CNG sale XXII, lot #778, 9/2/1992

On the right,  from A H Baldwin and Sons at the NY International at the Waldorf-Astoria 1/2004

The coin on the right is very similar to the very rare solidus of Maurice’s son Theodosius (not, sadly, part of the Hrefn Collection.)

Next is a light weight solidus distinguished from the regular issue by the star in the obverse field.   The strike is off center but I thought the portrait was exceptional.  Roma Numismatics, 11/2022.  E-Sale 102 lot #1396

Lastly, a tremissis.  Ex: Hermann Mosberg collection, 1946.  Purchased from Arnie Saslow, 8/1989 

On 7/2/2022 at 10:30 PM, DonnaML said:

Whoever A.K. was, a lot of his or her coins were sold by CNG in 2017.  I bought my A.K. Collection coin a couple of years ago from Sphinx Numismatics, which was offering several of them:

Julia Domna, AR Denarius ca. 201 AD, Rome Mint. Obv. Draped bust right, hair waved vertically and fastened in large bun in back, IVLIA AVGVSTA / Rev. Isis, wearing polos on head, draped, standing three-quarters right, head right, holding the nursing infant Horus in left arm against left breast, with her right hand holding a wreath or other ring-shaped object against her chest, her left foot against prow of galley, right, and her left knee bent with Horus resting on it; to left of Isis, rudder rests against altar; SAECVLI FELICITAS.  RIC IV-1 577 (p. 170), RSC III 174 (ill.), Sear RCV II 6606, BMCRE 166. 18x20 mm., 3.35 g., 6 h. Ex CNG Triton XX Auction, Jan. 10, 2017, part of Lot # 614, No. E027; from A.K. Collection.

Perhaps the Triton XX catalog, which is probably available online, has more information.

@DonnaML, I think your Isis is not holding an object in her right hand, rather her breast.  Here is a fresco from Karanis, near the pyramids, of Isis.

Seems very similar to me.  Cannot post a direct link, but you can find it https://www.lib.umich.edu with search terms Isis and Karanis.   

I picked up a single example, just because my collection lacked any semisses.  The reverse die was worn and cracked, near the end of its useful life.  But it would suggest that for this issue, the mint struck as many coins as it could, for the die.  The obverse is nice.

In place of the helmet, the forgery features an Agathodaemon performing a proctological exam.

(Sorry, but once you see it, you can’t unsee it.)

Might want to try it on a Lincoln penny first, if you can find a bronze one!

Silver polishing cloth.  It will remove light tarnish from silver.  I have never tried it on a bronze medal.  

Speculating here, but I wonder if you rubbed the first medal lightly with a Pacific cloth, would you see the raised elements more clearly and have a bit of color contrast?  Of course you have to buy it to try it. But I am wondering if that is what was done with the second example. 

My Carolingian collection received another addition.  This coin is much more common than some of the earlier acquisitions.  The obverse is struck from a worn die, but the reverse is the more interesting side, to me anyway.  The GRATIA DEI REX (GDR) coins differ substantially only there, where the mint name is displayed, This is a Latin term which may already be a bit anachronistic.  See CIVITAS PARISII for Paris, above.  

This coin is from present day Le Mans, then CINOMANIS CIVITAS, or city of the Cenomani, a Gallic tribe.  By the time Charles the Bald had this coin struck, in 864 to 875 AD, the Cenomani who supplied 5000 warriors to the cause of Vercingetorix during the Gallic War were probably long dissolved as any sort of political or ethnic identity.  Le Mans remained an important town, and the capital of the Province of Maine.  Situated as it is at the junction of Brittany, what was to become Normandy, and the Carolingian state, Le Mans was a frequent site of strife.   The Count of Maine would perish in 885 AD fighting against the Vikings who were pillaging Rouen.  

From Patrick Guillard,  03 Jan 24.   Depeyrot 559, examples known 2228.   “Sans doute immobilisé” so the lifetime issues are differentiated by weight.  This is a heavier example.