Finding provenances - where to start

[expat]

I would like to start trying to find provenances( going back further than the last few auctions/sales) for some of my coins. Where is the best place to start. I am limited to on-line info at the moment as I have no literature to reference. A beginners guide of how to go about it from you knowledgeable people would be great. Any tips or directions you can offer would be great. Thanks in advance

[Limes]

Although I must admit I don't spend enough time on this, and the few times I've tried it gave zero results, I am too interested in knowing how this works. Anyway, here's a topic about it on CT which might help to get started. 

[John Conduitt]

It can depend on what the coins are - where they are from and how expensive they are.

[expat]

4 minutes ago, John Conduitt said:

It can depend on what the coins are - where they are from and how expensive they are.

The first one I want to research seems to be a relatively scarce Elagabalus from Alexandria, Egypt. It is not listed in RIC, RPC has 27 examples with 10 in Museums.

[DonnaML]

4 hours ago, expat said:

The first one I want to research seems to be a relatively scarce Elagabalus from Alexandria, Egypt. It is not listed in RIC, RPC has 27 examples with 10 in Museums.

As a Roman Provincial coin, it wouldn't be listed in RIC. You could try doing a search on ACSearch for previous auction sales of the same type (ACSearch goes back 15-20 years) to see if any of the photos match. One needs to buy a membership to see previous prices, but I'm pretty sure it's free to the extent you're just trying to find a match. @rasiel's database, Coryssa.org, also covers Provincial coins (sold on Ebay and elsewhere) and is free, so you could try a search there as well.

[rasiel]

5 hours ago, expat said:

The first one I want to research seems to be a relatively scarce Elagabalus from Alexandria, Egypt. It is not listed in RIC, RPC has 27 examples with 10 in Museums.

https://coryssa.org/coins?p=1&s=all&c=4063

[NathanB]

I have heard that the Roma auction house was the very best place to go for provenances. 

🤣

Sorry, I really couldn't resist, and being the poor guy I am, I have little else to contribute.

[expat]

14 hours ago, DonnaML said:

As a Roman Provincial coin, it wouldn't be listed in RIC. You could try doing a search on ACSearch for previous auction sales of the same type (ACSearch goes back 15-20 years) to see if any of the photos match. One needs to buy a membership to see previous prices, but I'm pretty sure it's free to the extent you're just trying to find a match. @rasiel's database, Coryssa.org, also covers Provincial coins (sold on Ebay and elsewhere) and is free, so you could try a search there as well.

Sorry, meant to say Wildwinds not RIC. Mine is dated year 2, Wildwinds entries start at year 3. Not in r-Numis or Coryssa. It has a ref. Geissen 2334; Dattari 4139

[DonnaML]

2 hours ago, expat said:

Sorry, meant to say Wildwinds not RIC. Mine is dated year 2, Wildwinds entries start at year 3. Not in r-Numis or Coryssa. It has a ref. Geissen 2334; Dattari 4139

I'm not sure what you mean by saying it's not in r-Numis?  So far as I know, only Greek coins are actually indexed there, by contrast to the comprehensive unindexed database of old auction catalogs. Leaving that aside, it would help if you posted a photo of your coin, but are you referring to the type with a bust of Sarapis right on the reverse, i.e., RPC VI 10032 (https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coins/6/10032)? If so, the proper Dattari citation for Year 2 would be 4137; 4139 is Year 4. According to Emmett, by the way (see Emmett 2952.2), Year 2 falls into the "most common" category; only Year 1 of this type is considered rare.

If I'm right, here's an example of Year 2 on acsearch, sold last year by Kölner Münzkabinett:

And one from Dr. Busso Peus Nachfolger, sold in 2017:

CNG, 2016:

CNG, 2015:

Also CNG 2015:

CNG, undated:

There are more than 50 examples of all years of this type on acsearch, dating back to 2002. They seem pretty much evenly distributed among the different years the type was issued. I hope that helps. As I mentioned, you could access all of this information on acsearch for free, other than the hammer prices, for which one needs an annual subscription.

Edited May 24 by DonnaML

[expat]

Another case of the auction house copy and pasting the "attribution" that came with the coin. This was the description on the auction page

Roman Empire (Provincial) - Elagabalus (218-222 AD).
Potin Tetradrachm (11,63 g., 23 mm.) Egypt, Alexandria. Dated year 2 (218-219).

A KAICAP MA AVP ANTWNINOC EVCEB, Laureate head to right. /

Bust of Serapis to right, wearing kalathos; L - B across fields.

Geissen 2334; Dattari 4139.

Thanks for spending some time on this @DonnaML I am afraid I might have worded my request wrongly. I am trying to find examples of earlier ownership for some of my coins. Maybe the only realistic option is to look through old auction catalogues. Yes you are correct in assuming the coin type. I, maybe misguidedly, though it would be an interesting exercise, but it looks to be long winded and repetitive operation.

[DonnaML]

2 minutes ago, expat said:

Another case of the auction house copy and pasting the "attribution" that came with the coin. This was the description on the auction page

Roman Empire (Provincial) - Elagabalus (218-222 AD).
Potin Tetradrachm (11,63 g., 23 mm.) Egypt, Alexandria. Dated year 2 (218-219).

A KAICAP MA AVP ANTWNINOC EVCEB, Laureate head to right. /

Bust of Serapis to right, wearing kalathos; L - B across fields.

Geissen 2334; Dattari 4139.

Thanks for spending some time on this @DonnaML I am afraid I might have worded my request wrongly. I am trying to find examples of earlier ownership for some of my coins. Maybe the only realistic option is to look through old auction catalogues. Yes you are correct in assuming the coin type. I, maybe misguidedly, though it would be an interesting exercise, but it looks to be long winded and repetitive operation.

You're very welcome. Yes, if you can't find your coin on acsearch or one of the other indexed databases, then spending many hours looking through old auction catalogs available on R-Numis or the Newman Numismatic Portal or Gallica or the Internet Archive is probably the best remaining alternative. But it's something I simply don't have the patience to do! For Roman Republican coins there's the Roman Republican Die Project (the Schaefer database) at https://numismatics.org/crro/ , but there isn't really anything similar I know of for Roman Provincial coins except the examples on RPC itself (which can be submitted by collectors), or for Roman Imperial coins.