Is the weight of this sestertius a concern?

[kirispupis]

Note: this coin is not mine and has since been purchased by someone else

A sestertius with Caligula's sisters has long been one of my "dream" coins and I truly don't know whether I'll ever own one due to the prices realized and the fact that Roman coins aren't my major focus, so I was keenly interested when this example came up at auction.

It measures at 32mm, 23.10g

I strongly considered bidding on the coin, but after some research I was concerned about the low weight. The vast majority of examples I pulled up were in the 26-28g range. I therefore chose not to bid on it and the auction ended with a bid right about where my max would have been.

Interestingly, it then showed up on the seller's VCoins site, and I assume there must have been some minimum that wasn't met. It didn't last long there and was sold.

For future knowledge, should I have been concerned about the weight? Since I'm not as knowledgeable about Roman coins, and I was recently bitten by purchasing a fouree denarius that should have been obvious by weight (luckily the seller accepted the return), I've been much more conscious there lately.

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

Low weight?  It's 23 grams.  I'd be more concerned about the 18gram one on vcoins.  The patina's probably phony and it has some smoothing going on (which may have been corrosion removal).  I've seen far worse.  Unless it's super-obvious, I leave the authenticity to others; I don't want to be wrong.

i've noticed that many Savoca and some German dealers tend to have that patina.

Here's my humble example:  (the green has been stable since 2011).  Ugly, but no smoothing here!

SH54869. Orichalcum sestertius, RIC I 37; BMCRE I 38; Cohen 24, F, rough, Rome mint, weight 24.698g, maximum diameter 34.9mm, die axis 180o, 37 - 38 A.D.; obverse C CAESAR AVG GERMANICVS PON M TR POT, laureate head left; reverse S P Q R / P P / OB CIVES / SERVATOS, legend in four lines within Corona Civica oak wreath; ex Edward J. Waddell; (ex Forum)

[kevikens]

I have found that neither the Roman mints or consumers were all that concerned about the weight of their aes coinage. These are not really bullion coins that were going to be melted down. As long as they were convertible to bullion, accepted in the market place and by the tax collector, they were just fine even if a bit on the light side. This one seems OK to me, warts and all.

[Roman Collector]

While there's nothing that immediately jumps out as a red flag about this particular specimen, be warned that the three sisters sestertius of Caligula is one of the most commonly forged sestertii in all of Roman numismatics. Be very careful when purchasing one. 

[ambr0zie]

I am not qualified enough to provide a verdict about authenticity, but this type is one of the most forged from all Roman imperials. Including Paduan copies (these ones have a numismatic value, but still copies). And of course modern ones. 

I remember I saw an auction with a forgery, listed as 'copy of Paduan'. A specialist would have no doubts, but for me it was very deceiving - corroded, toned and cleaned, whatever. 

The price for a genuine example is pretty high so the purchase price should be a good clue - if it was cheap this is a big suggestion. 

Edited May 5 by ambr0zie

[John Conduitt]

So while the type is heavily faked, the weight isn't going to help as the Romans weren't too strict about that. Even for silver you can get some big percentage variations.

[Limes]

Weight peaks according to RIC for the sestertii of Caligula are 28.25 - 27.25 gr. Of course, other factors are relevant too and its difficult to determine its a fake from just weight in my opinion. There appears to be some corrosion / pitting on the coin you show, which could explain the lesser weight. Maybe it had some active corrosion going on, that was removed and the coins was repatinated. Surely the latest seller / auctioneer would not mention that, they never do unfortunately. And they do list a fake coin every now and then. It was previously sold by Vico, in 2020, for half what it sold (?) for in the recent auction. Unfortunately, there's no weight mentioned in that listing, nor any other details about the coin. 

Talking about weight, here's my sestertius of Gaius. It weighs a mere 20.55 gr. Way off. But you can see that the surface is heavily veiled. And not showing on this photo, so are the sides. It's smaller, and thus lighter, than all other issues I've looked at. A fake? I don't think so, maybe someone tried to turn it into a strange piece of juwelry, or a curiosity piece. 

[Limes]

Addition: 

Out of curiosity, I've been looking at some fakes posted on FAC and comparing them with offerings, via aCSearch. I've noticed two reverse dies. One where the 'p' in Agrippina is with an 'open' round p, and one where the round is closed: 

Open: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?pid=925 Also notice the 'v' in Drvsilla. 

Closed and open together: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?pid=4136 

Now see this listing at a German auction house, which was withdrawn: https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?lot=3880&p=lot&sid=7286 The reverse looks very much like the coin you posted in the OP. Notice the reverse open 'p' and the 'v' in Drvsilla. These parts of the reverse die also appear on the fakes on FAC, with the 'open p'. 

About the coin withdrawn by the German auctioneer; also notice the obverse. E.g. how the 'R' in GERMANICVS runs into the hair. And the nose of caligula is very comparable. 

I think they could be a match. So that could perhaps mean the OP coin is a fake? It would deserve some additional comparison. But I would be quite nervous as the owner of this coin. 

 

[John Conduitt]

8 minutes ago, Limes said:

Addition: 

Out of curiosity, I've been looking at some fakes posted on FAC and comparing them with offerings, via aCSearch. I've noticed two reverse dies. One where the 'p' in Agrippina is with an 'open' round p, and one where the round is closed: 

Open: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?pid=925 Also notice the 'v' in Drvsilla. 

Closed and open together: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?pid=4136 

Now see this listing at a German auction house, which was withdrawn: https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?lot=3880&p=lot&sid=7286 The reverse looks very much like the coin you posted in the OP. Notice the reverse open 'p' and the 'v' in Drvsilla. These parts of the reverse die also appear on the fakes on FAC, with the 'open p'. 

About the coin withdrawn by the German auctioneer; also notice the obverse. E.g. how the 'R' in GERMANICVS runs into the hair. And the nose of caligula is very comparable. 

I think they could be a match. So that could perhaps mean the OP coin is a fake? It would deserve some additional comparison. But I would be quite nervous as the owner of this coin. 

 

Yes looks like it. The beading runs out in the same places on both sides, the legends line up the same and there is a bit of extra metal in front of the S in SC.

[CPK]

34 minutes ago, Limes said:

Addition: 

Out of curiosity, I've been looking at some fakes posted on FAC and comparing them with offerings, via aCSearch. I've noticed two reverse dies. One where the 'p' in Agrippina is with an 'open' round p, and one where the round is closed: 

Open: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?pid=925 Also notice the 'v' in Drvsilla. 

Closed and open together: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?pid=4136 

Now see this listing at a German auction house, which was withdrawn: https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?lot=3880&p=lot&sid=7286 The reverse looks very much like the coin you posted in the OP. Notice the reverse open 'p' and the 'v' in Drvsilla. These parts of the reverse die also appear on the fakes on FAC, with the 'open p'. 

About the coin withdrawn by the German auctioneer; also notice the obverse. E.g. how the 'R' in GERMANICVS runs into the hair. And the nose of caligula is very comparable. 

I think they could be a match. So that could perhaps mean the OP coin is a fake? It would deserve some additional comparison. But I would be quite nervous as the owner of this coin. 

 

Not good! Almost certainly a double die match, in my opinion. Glad @kirispupis wasn't the buyer - and I hope whoever it was can have the matter satisfactorily settled.

[idesofmarch01]

44 minutes ago, Limes said:

Now see this listing at a German auction house, which was withdrawn: https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?lot=3880&p=lot&sid=7286 The reverse looks very much like the coin you posted in the OP. Notice the reverse open 'p' and the 'v' in Drvsilla. These parts of the reverse die also appear on the fakes on FAC, with the 'open p'. 

About the coin withdrawn by the German auctioneer; also notice the obverse. E.g. how the 'R' in GERMANICVS runs into the hair. And the nose of caligula is very comparable. 

I think they could be a match.

I agree with your observations above, which convince me that the two coins are an obverse and reverse die match.  However, when I try to figure out if a coin is a forgery (at which I'm not an expert), I look for exactly the following characteristics:

35 minutes ago, John Conduitt said:

Yes looks like it. The beading runs out in the same places on both sides,

For me, the probability that the devices (such as the beading) would be similarly centered, and taper off/intersect the edges at exactly the same places on two supposedly different-sized flans is exceedingly low.  This makes me very suspicious of both coins.

Edited May 5 by idesofmarch01

[kirispupis]

1 hour ago, Limes said:

Addition: 

Out of curiosity, I've been looking at some fakes posted on FAC and comparing them with offerings, via aCSearch. I've noticed two reverse dies. One where the 'p' in Agrippina is with an 'open' round p, and one where the round is closed: 

Open: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?pid=925 Also notice the 'v' in Drvsilla. 

Closed and open together: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?pid=4136 

Now see this listing at a German auction house, which was withdrawn: https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?lot=3880&p=lot&sid=7286 The reverse looks very much like the coin you posted in the OP. Notice the reverse open 'p' and the 'v' in Drvsilla. These parts of the reverse die also appear on the fakes on FAC, with the 'open p'. 

About the coin withdrawn by the German auctioneer; also notice the obverse. E.g. how the 'R' in GERMANICVS runs into the hair. And the nose of caligula is very comparable. 

I think they could be a match. So that could perhaps mean the OP coin is a fake? It would deserve some additional comparison. But I would be quite nervous as the owner of this coin. 

 

Thank you for this detailed research! I agree that these look like the same dies.

It appears that my paranoia in this case was deserved.

I recall a mantra from when I first started in photography - that the most important skill a beginning photographer needs to learn is when not to take a photo.

Seems like a similar analogy here. Before I get too involved in Roman coins, I first need to learn when not to purchase one. Luckily, in this case I don't need to worry about another return.