CPK Posted March 10 · Supporter Share Posted March 10 (edited) I recently obtained this denarius of Marcus Aurelius (RIC III 303), which features a cuirassed bust. Apparently, this bust variant is not listed in RIC or any other standard reference works that I know of. The only other specimen I have been able to find is this one on ACSearch, sold by cgb.fr (as was mine), and at the time they considered it unique. I've found cgb.fr to be pretty thorough in their attribution research. Interestingly, I don't believe the two coins share a die. Does anyone know of any reference catalog where this bust variant is listed? Does Woytek extend to Marcus Aurelius? Anyway, it's a lovely coin aside from the rarity, and I'm partial to the cuirassed bust style for these earlier denarii. Feel free to post your thoughts and comments! MARCUS AURELIUS, AD 161-180 AR Denarius (18.15mm, 3.60g, 6h) Struck AD 174. Rome mint Obverse: M ANTONINVS AVG TR P XXVIII, laureate and cuirassed bust of Marcus Aurelius right Reverse: IMP VII COS III, Victory seated left, holding patera and palm References: RIC III 303 var. (bust type), MIR 281-4/35 Toned with an outstanding portrait. An extremely rare variant featuring a cuirassed bust. Edited March 10 by CPK Added additional reference. Thanks Roman Collector! 16 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Collector Posted March 10 · Patron Share Posted March 10 41 minutes ago, CPK said: Does Woytek extend to Marcus Aurelius? No. The MIR volume for Marcus as Augustus is written by Szaivert. Your coin is from Marcus's 27th emission, according to Szaivert. Denarii of this emission are known with four bust types, per Szaivert: 30 (laureate head, r.), 32 (laureate bust, r., drapery on far shoulder), 35 (laureate and cuirassed bust, r., seen from behind), and 37 (laureate, draped, and cuirassed bust, right, seen from behind). Your coin is MIR 281-4/35. 7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPK Posted March 10 · Supporter Author Share Posted March 10 24 minutes ago, Roman Collector said: No. The MIR volume for Marcus as Augustus is written by Szaivert. Your coin is from Marcus's 27th emission, according to Szaivert. Denarii of this emission are known with four bust types, per Szaivert: 30 (laureate head, r.), 32 (laureate bust, r., drapery on far shoulder), 35 (laureate and cuirassed bust, r., seen from behind), and 37 (laureate, draped, and cuirassed bust, right, seen from behind). Your coin is MIR 281-4/35. Thank you! I am not familiar with MIR, but I will add that reference to my coin's information. Does Szaivert cite known specimens, by any chance? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted March 10 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted March 10 (edited) 25 minutes ago, CPK said: Thank you! I am not familiar with MIR, but I will add that reference to my coin's information. Does Szaivert cite known specimens, by any chance? Here's the citation in Numiswiki: Szaivert, W. Moneta Imperii Romani, Die Münzprägung der Kaiser Marcus Aurelius, Lucius Verus und Commodus (161-192). (Wien, 1984). 336 pp., 26 plates, 30 cm. I have no idea of how available it is. Plus Numiswiki has this "bust types chart" used in Szaivert's book: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=Szaivert MIR Bust Types Chart From page 238. Combine the two digits for the complete bust type number, for example 10 = 'Bare-headed right' plus 'Head only', in other words 'Head bare right'. Not every combination actually exists. 1- Bare-headed right 2- Bare-headed left 3- Laureate right 4- Laureate left 5- Radiate right 6- Radiate left -0 head only or shoulders bare -1 bust with aegis -2 bust with drapery on far shoulder -3 draped bust seen from behind -4 draped bust seen from front -5 Cuirassed bust seen from behind -6 Cuirassed bust seen from front -7 Draped and cuirassed bust seen from behind -8 Draped and cuirassed bust seen from front -9 Veiled 70 - Not used 71 - Bust wearing lion scalp headdress right, club over shoulder 72 - Bust wearing lion scalp headdress right 73 - Bust wearing lion scalp headdress left 74 - Bust with aegis left, spear in left hand 75 - Laureate, draped and cuirassed half length figure right, seen from front 76 - Laureate, bust right with Aegis on naked chest 77 - Janiform laureate bust Edited March 10 by DonnaML 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPK Posted March 10 · Supporter Author Share Posted March 10 Thanks @DonnaML! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Collector Posted March 10 · Patron Share Posted March 10 12 hours ago, CPK said: Does Szaivert cite known specimens, by any chance? Not with that bust type. Only the BMC specimen with bust type 30. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted March 10 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted March 10 1 hour ago, Roman Collector said: Not with that bust type. Only the BMC specimen with bust type 30. Just out of curiosity, though: does the fact that Szaivert lists bust type 35 imply that he knew it existed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Collector Posted March 10 · Patron Share Posted March 10 20 minutes ago, DonnaML said: Just out of curiosity, though: does the fact that Szaivert lists bust type 35 imply that he knew it existed? He lists the coins of that issue (denarii are denomination 4). He lists the bust types known for the denominations. But he doesn't list the bust types known for each reverse type. Here's the listing. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marsyas Mike Posted March 10 · Member Share Posted March 10 A lovely coin indeed, @CPK Over the past couple of years, I have accumulated - without trying! - quite a few "not in RIC/OCRE" bust types for Antoninus Pius and Marcus Aurelius. Some of them do not appear to be especially rare, just not noted. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Posted March 10 · Supporter Share Posted March 10 The bust types for each reverse type have to be looked up in the concordance table at the end. There all known types to Szaivert are listed, and he only knew the BM specimen with laureate head right (p. 263 - sorry can't take pictures at the moment). 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPK Posted March 10 · Supporter Author Share Posted March 10 7 minutes ago, Marcus said: The bust types for each reverse type have to be looked up in the concordance table at the end. There all known types to Szaivert are listed, and he only knew the BM specimen with laureate head right (p. 263 - sorry can't take pictures at the moment). Thanks! Do you know offhand when this reference was published? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Posted March 10 · Supporter Share Posted March 10 (edited) It's from 1986, second unchanged edition 1989. Edited March 10 by Marcus 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerosmyfavorite68 Posted March 10 · Member Share Posted March 10 Unpublished or not, it's a beautiful example, and better than any of the few Aurelius coins I have. It looks like the better quality trend is coming along nicely. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marsyas Mike Posted March 11 · Member Share Posted March 11 As I mentioned before, finding unlisted bust types for Antonine AE (unlisted in OCRE anyway) is almost routine. What seems a bit strange is that I just got an unlisted Hadrian... at least I think so. Why this is strange is that RIC just re-did all the Hadrians, with new numbers, with far more extensive bust types described. So finding an unlisted Hadrian nowadays is strange. Here it is: Why unlisted? OCRE only shows bare head, slight drapery and draped and cuirassed. This one does not have a cuirass - but is fully draped (not just "traces of drapery on shoulder" - a common unlisted variation on the Antonines). RIC II, Part 3 (second edition) Hadrian 971 Legend: HADRIANVS AVGVSTVS P P Type: Head of Hadrian, laureate, right Portrait: Hadrian Legend: COS III // S C (in exergue) Type: Roma seated left on cuirass and pile of arms, holding Victory and cornucopia Deity: Roma objects: 4 (RIC 972 is identical to RIC 971 in OCRE - see below for RIC page which shows the differences - a fairly typical OCRE error) RIC II, Part 3 (second edition) Hadrian 973 Legend: HADRIANVS AVGVSTVS P P Type: Bust of Hadrian, laureate, draped and cuirassed, right, viewed from rear or side Portrait: Hadrian Legend: COS III // S C (in exergue) Type: Roma seated left on cuirass and pile of arms, holding Victory and cornucopia Deity: Roma There's nothing about this that seems fake to me - just a typical low-grade sestertius of the sort I am always looking for on eBay (it weights 24.5 grams). I looked all over acsearch and elsewhere hoping for a die-match to mine, or just another draped-only type, but I had no luck. I did find a draped and cuirassed type - the cuirass is very obvious on these issues of Hadrian (RIC 973): https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=112400 Here's one with slight drapery on shoulder (also not in OCRE but in RIC (see below) this is noted for RIC 971 as an A2 in the references): https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=287721 Fortunately, the relevant page for the new RIC is available in Google books - I think this shows mine should be bust C2, laureate draped bust (viewed from side on mine), but none like this are noted in RIC 971-973- unless I'm reading it wrong - I will admit all those codes for bust types, etc. are still kind of new to me and I get confused) : Whew. This makes my head hurt. Any guidance or corrections greatly appreciated! 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Posted March 13 · Supporter Share Posted March 13 @Marsyas Mike: I think this is RIC 875 (HADRIANVS AVGVSTVS only, no P P). The bust type C2 is missing by mistake in the list Heads on p. 134. Here the BM specimen: https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/C_R-9437 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marsyas Mike Posted March 14 · Member Share Posted March 14 20 hours ago, Marcus said: @Marsyas Mike: I think this is RIC 875 (HADRIANVS AVGVSTVS only, no P P). The bust type C2 is missing by mistake in the list Heads on p. 134. Here the BM specimen: https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/C_R-9437 Thank you so much for this information @Marcus - you have really helped me out here. I was aware of the "No PP" types in general, but a seated Roma type was not coming up in OCRE. So I checked again, just looking at ALL the Hadrian listings to find RIC 875. And yep (or nope), it is not in there. Here is the relevant page: http://numismatics.org/ocre/results?q=portrait_facet%3A"Hadrian"&start=380 Note the RIC numbers go from RIC 869 to RIC 877, with no RIC 870-876. Unless I am doing this wrong!. OCRE is very useful, but it does have problems. But thanks to your information, I have found other examples elsewhere (acsearch) and the draped-only busts look a lot like mine. Here is a Jean Elsen auction - not a die-match, but it looks a lot like mine: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=11112102 Thanks again for your help with this. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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