Hoth2 Posted February 23 · Member Share Posted February 23 (edited) Hi All, I just came here from the Cointalk forum. I used to be a VERY active lurker and occasional poster. Life got in the way of coins and it had been a while since I'd checked in. I went back the other day and so many people I remembered were gone. I did some detective work.. and I found you guys! Anyway--one of the posts I saw on here was someone saying that just about every bronze you see out there is tooled so we have to live with it. Now I feel like I see tooling on like every bronze I see, only I have no idea what's in my imagination and what's actual tooling. I saw a sestertius yesterday that looked great, but then the lines in the wreath looked a little thick and not rounded and I thought that's a high spot.. likely to be tooled.. good coin ruined. But last week I would have just thought it was a great coin. Is this really true--bronzes are tooled so deal with it? Are we OK with this? How can I tell what's tooling and what's not, beyond the really obvious ones? Edited February 23 by Hoth2 5 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange Julius Posted February 24 · Member Share Posted February 24 (edited) Welcome aboard! As for tooling… some may not agree with me but tooling is not common with most coins. it’s something you will see more often within certain categories of coins like first and second century (and some early third century) sestertii. But unless tooling is expertly done on coins looking for big money, it’s usually not hard to spot. You’ll see it occasionally elsewhere. What’s more common is cleaning scratches (very common), and smoothing of fields. I guess in the categories I play, tooling is uncommon and easily spotted. Just do your due diligence, look at many examples of the coins you like to buy, and if you’re spending big money, reach out for more expert opinions and you’ll be fine! Edited February 24 by Orange Julius 8 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPK Posted February 24 · Supporter Share Posted February 24 I agree with @Orange Julius. Tooling is definitely more prevalent on certain types than on others, and in many cases it is not too hard to spot. I certainly wouldn't say that "just about every bronze is tooled". Out of curiosity, could you post a picture of the sestertius you saw yesterday? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerosmyfavorite68 Posted February 24 · Member Share Posted February 24 Could it be the one that was posted on another forum? I bought this one recently, as an add-on to an order. While not 'tooled', the reverse was excessively smoothed, which in my opinion, probably obliterated a lot of what was on the reverse. People with more expert eyes than myself can perhaps opine if there was any strengthening of the left side of the obverse legend. One can see something going on below the MITA.. but I'm not sure if that was just a product of some smoothing. The reverse looks less clown-ish in person, but it's definitely a face-up coin. I can't think of any photographed tooled coins I have. I don't have many that I know to be tooled. I bought an Aurelian double Sestertius (the radiate one) back during the '90's, but it was described upfront as quite tooled. I got it for the remainder price and I don't have regrets about that, for how many Aurelian double sestertii does one see? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Collector Posted February 24 · Patron Share Posted February 24 (edited) 15 hours ago, Hoth2 said: Hi All, I just came here from the Cointalk forum. I used to be a VERY active lurker and occasional poster. Life got in the way of coins and it had been a while since I'd checked in. I went back the other day and so many people I remembered were gone. I did some detective work.. and I found you guys! Anyway--one of the posts I saw on here was someone saying that just about every bronze you see out there is tooled so we have to live with it. Now I feel like I see tooling on like every bronze I see, only I have no idea what's in my imagination and what's actual tooling. I saw a sestertius yesterday that looked great, but then the lines in the wreath looked a little thick and not rounded and I thought that's a high spot.. likely to be tooled.. good coin ruined. But last week I would have just thought it was a great coin. Is this really true--bronzes are tooled so deal with it? Are we OK with this? How can I tell what's tooling and what's not, beyond the really obvious ones? From a numerical perspective, most bronze coins have NOT been tooled. It's important to keep the following in mind, though. The bronze denominations were the workhorse denominations in the 1st and 2nd centuries. They were used for the vast majority of transactions. They circulated heavily for decades because the economy was stable, ESPECIALLY during the period of the "five good emperors." They are typically well-worn when found. Here are some typical coins of the 2nd century, for example: You'll be fine if you're satisfied with F - VF grade coins. There are thousands and thousands of problem-free, unaltered coins in these grades. For several centuries, numismatists weren't particularly concerned about grade. The big collections formed by the various princes and dukes of Europe in the Enlightenment emphasized completeness, not eye appeal. Early numismatic handbooks, such as that by J.Y. Akerman, emphasized rarity in terms of value, not condition. His catalog is limited only to the reverse types he considered rare and worthy of being on the lookout for. He doesn't even MENTION grade. The late 18th century sales catalog of Sulzer's collection doesn't say a word about the grade of any of the specimens. However, the modern period -- especially when the imperceptible difference between a slab containing an MS-65 and a slab holding an MS-67 Morgan dollar can mean four figures -- condition has superseded rarity in terms of what collectors are looking for. Collectors of modern coinage take their quest for perfection and apply it to ancient numismatics, where the notion of "perfection" is unwarranted. This demand for high-grade specimens has created a situation where a skillful forger has an incentive to turn a very nice aVF specimen into something that looks aMS to an inexperienced collector or investor. Genuine, high-grade, unworked specimens, free of corrosion or other surface problems are VERY unusual and fetch four, five, or even six figures at auction, even for a common emperor, such as Trajan. If you demand perfection and have a LOT of disposable income, these coins are available but only at high-end auctions. Here are some coins (not mine; I'm no millionaire) that fetched > $1000 at recent auctions. Even these are NOT perfect. They have wear, pitting, and scratches. The reverse on the Hadrian was weakly struck. They were, after all, the pocket change of ancient people and were buried in dirt for 1800+ years. If aEF isn't good enough for you, you'll have to cough up close to five figures or more for genuine specimens. This could be yours for the price of a new car, provided you don't mind some encrustations, a flan crack, and less-than-perfect centering: But, if you're looking for a high-grade, bargain, second-century bronze, you're going to be seduced by a toolie such as this one under discussion at a different coin forum. My advice to you is to not be a condition crank. Be happy with worn but unaltered coins like this one. Edited February 24 by Roman Collector 14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sulla80 Posted February 24 · Supporter Share Posted February 24 XXVIII. On Travel as a Cure for Discontent Do you suppose that you alone have had this experience? Are you surprised, as if it were a novelty, that after such long travel and so many changes of scene you have not been able to shake off the gloom and heaviness of your mind? You need a change of soul rather than a change of climate." -Seneca the Younger, Letters, XVIII a 22g Lucilla Sestertius with Hilaritas standing to left, holding cornucopiae and long palm; S-C across fields 6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Collector Posted February 24 · Patron Share Posted February 24 1 minute ago, Sulla80 said: XXVIII. On Travel as a Cure for Discontent Do you suppose that you alone have had this experience? Are you surprised, as if it were a novelty, that after such long travel and so many changes of scene you have not been able to shake off the gloom and heaviness of your mind? You need a change of soul rather than a change of climate." -Seneca the Younger, Letters, XVIII a 22g Lucilla Sestertius with Hilaritas standing to left, holding cornucopiae and long palm; S-C across fields Lovely! That's what I'm talking about! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonW Posted February 24 · Member Share Posted February 24 In my experience, not only the degree of cleaning/restoration/tooling of a coin varies greatly, but also the definition of these terms. Many/most ancient bronze coins that have been mechanically cleaned have also been smoothed (more or less extensively). Mechanical cleaning inevitably leaves traces in the patina that a restorer will usually smooth away. Smoothing, on the other hand, can go so far as to enhance/strengthen certain details without changing the image of a coin. Some may say that this is already tooling, others may disagree. For me personally, tooling is definitively starting as soon as the image is changed (e.g. by adding new details). If this is your definition, then the majority of ancient bronze coins are certainly not tooled. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoth2 Posted February 24 · Member Author Share Posted February 24 13 hours ago, Orange Julius said: Welcome aboard! Thank you! And thanks for the reply! Cleaning scratches I can deal with, especially given my budget. 12 hours ago, CPK said: Out of curiosity, could you post a picture of the sestertius you saw yesterday? I just did a quick look and unfortunately it has disappeared into the sands of my browsing history.. 10 hours ago, Nerosmyfavorite68 said: Could it be the one that was posted on another forum? I did see this post--I specifically remember the circular punch/scratch on the back of Domi's head. A coin like this would be very welcome in my low-end collection. 4 hours ago, Roman Collector said: From a numerical perspective, most bronze coins have NOT been tooled. It's important to keep the following in mind, though. The bronze denominations were the workhorse denominations in the 1st and 2nd centuries. They were used for the vast majority of transactions. They circulated heavily for decades because the economy was stable, ESPECIALLY during the period of the "five good emperors." They are typically well-worn when found. Here are some typical coins of the 2nd century, for example: You'll be fine if you're satisfied with F - VF grade coins. There are thousands and thousands of problem-free, unaltered coins in these grades. For several centuries, numismatists weren't particularly concerned about grade. Holy smokes thanks for the comprehensive answer and the history lesson in particular. If it's not something to worry about at the lower end of the collecting spectrum, then I'm safe. I don't have the budget for EF sestertii and collect mostly because I love holding something that someone made 2kish years ago. If something nice finds its way into my budget I don't kick it out, but more often than not I'm hanging out with coins like that last one. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sulla80 Posted February 24 · Supporter Share Posted February 24 (edited) 1 hour ago, SimonW said: For me personally, tooling is definitively starting as soon as the image is changed (e.g. by adding new details). If this is your definition, then the majority of ancient bronze coins are certainly not tooled. There is certainly an element of "how badly tooled" vs. just "cleaned" that factors into my personal buying choices. Although I wouldn't buy it annotated as "smoothed and tooled", I would probably not notice if it weren't called out. Roma described this coin as "somewhat smoothed and tooled." and I would not consider this coin (properly described or not) that Tauler & Fau describe as "Tooled". I am sure that there is more subtle tooling and smoothing (not called out by the seller) that I have overlooked. Edited February 24 by Sulla80 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Collector Posted February 24 · Patron Share Posted February 24 9 minutes ago, Sulla80 said: There is certainly an element of "how badly tooled" vs. just "cleaned" that factors into my personal buying choices. Although I wouldn't buy it annotated as "smoothed and tooled", I would probably not notice if it weren't called out. Roma described this coin as "somewhat smoothed and tooled." and I would not consider this coin (properly described or not) that Tauler & Fau describe as "Tooled". I am sure that there is more subtle tooling and smoothing (not called out by the seller) that I have overlooked. The bottom one is particularly horrible. Wouldn't you rather have this one? 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sulla80 Posted February 24 · Supporter Share Posted February 24 (edited) 1 hour ago, Roman Collector said: The bottom one is particularly horrible. Wouldn't you rather have this one? no question for me - this coin is nicer than the "supertooled" example from Tauler and Fau 🙃 https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=9426420 Edited February 24 by Sulla80 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientJoe Posted February 24 · Member Share Posted February 24 It very much depends. I'd suggest posting a picture of the coin you're referencing. "Tooling" could be anything from enhancing a few details to completely re-engraving a different type on a coin. Personally, I avoid tooled coins but some degree of smoothing is understandable. That said, the curve from smoothed to tooled is continuous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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