Heliodromus Posted September 21, 2023 · Member Share Posted September 21, 2023 (edited) The recent post about a Roma group lot, brings up the subject of the interesting radiate lion with thunderbolt type introduced by Caracalla. @DonnaML previously showed her Gallienus coin of this type, and referenced a 2018 article by David Woods "From Caracalla to Carausius: The Radiate Lion with Thunderbolt in its Jaws" (available online), that would seem to reflect latest ideas on what the symbolism means. One notable thing with this type, which has been used by a half dozen emperors from Caracalla to Diocletian, is that it is always paired with a "P M TR P ..." reverse legend, which seems to hint that the design too is intended to represent an attribute of the emperor. Woods suggests it represents the emperor's bravery/virtus, and suggests an interesting origin of the symbolism based on dreams reported by Alexander the Great' parents, coupled with Caracalla'a reported obsession with Alexander. I don't find this totally convincing, although it does connect the lion and thunderbolt and Caracalla's creation of the type. Less convincing is why later emperors all the way down to Posthumus and Diocletian would also connect with this Alexander symbolism, but I suppose it's possible that over time it became emblemic of courage and less connected with Alexander. Presumably these coin designs were intended to be recognizable by the general public, but perhaps the design had been used often enough by Caracalla (on multiple denominations, with multiple Trib. Pot. and consular titles) that it became well known even if the public was not familar with this tale of dreams by Alexander the Great's parents ?! In Woods' article he dismisses a suggestion that this emblem might be connected with Mithraism, since it seems the suggestion was only based on the Mithraic lion-headed man depiction of Aion, as well as perhaps the radiate crown. However, another interesting connection is that in the levels of Mithraic initiates, the Lion (level 4) is associated with the symbols of a thunderbolt, fire shovel and sistrum, for which I've read little explanation other than the fire shovel perhaps being due the lion considered as a hot animal which according to Mithraic doctrine needs to be cooled with honey! Above: Level 4 - Leo/Lion - attributes, from the Mithraeum of Felicissimus, Ostia. The story of Alexander the Great's mother's dream of a hot 😀 marriage consumption accompanied by thunderbolt and associated fire is also interesting .. perhaps the thunderbolt in connection with the lion is also being used as a symbol of heat/fire (as started by lightening strikes), but in any case there does seem to be some parallelism with the Mithraic association of the lion with a thunderbolt, and it being considered as a "hot" animal. Why the Mithraic Leo level would also be associated with a sistrum is another mystery, but I guess that's why its a mystery cult ! Edited September 21, 2023 by Heliodromus 7 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Conduitt Posted September 21, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted September 21, 2023 Yes it doesn't need to reference Alexander the Great to represent the courageous emperor (the radiate lion) inevitably taking control of power (the thunderbolt). The eagle with a thunderbolt does a similar job, but referencing Jupiter and the victorious army instead of the emperor. It's not a completely unlikely combination for them to have come up with independently. Lions with crowns represent Christianity and monarchs, while the coat of arms of the BBC features a lion holding a thunderbolt to represent broadcasting. 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heliodromus Posted September 21, 2023 · Member Author Share Posted September 21, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, John Conduitt said: Yes it doesn't need to reference Alexander the Great to represent the courageous emperor (the radiate lion) inevitably taking control of power (the thunderbolt). It seems likely it may have been interpreted like this by the plebes even if the Alexander connection was the original inspiration for the design under Caracalla, and anyways I suppose that was essentially the original meaning even if we assume that the Alexander connection is why Caracalla appeared to have liked the design so much (per his repeated use of it). I've got to wonder how much of this sort of thing was lost on the public... outside of the upper classes, how many of the public had a good enough education to be aware of this sort of rather obscure history/myth, or to think hard enough about the coin designs (seems unlikely!) to make such an obscure connection. Lion=(brave) emperor, Thunderbolt=power seems a much more realistic interpretation/assumption by anyone who did even bother to think about such things. Edited September 21, 2023 by Heliodromus 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seth77 Posted September 21, 2023 · Member Share Posted September 21, 2023 I wonder if it wasnt something along the lines of this in the case of Caracalla: https://leunumismatik.com/en/lot/8/259 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heliodromus Posted September 21, 2023 · Member Author Share Posted September 21, 2023 Interesting ... so it seems there are many reasons why Caracalla may/would have liked the type (maybe not least because he had a pet lion and liked them!), but hard to guess what exactly was in the mind of whoever came up with the design and perhaps presented the idea to Caracalla (or is it conceivable he came up with the idea himself?!). It seems that in general simple explanations are better than more complicated ones, so if the design is connected to Caracalla's obsession with Alexander the great, then his parents's supposed dreams of thunderbolt (+fire) & lion, and his own like of lions seems enough! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seth77 Posted September 21, 2023 · Member Share Posted September 21, 2023 13 minutes ago, Heliodromus said: Interesting ... so it seems there are many reasons why Caracalla may/would have liked the type (maybe not least because he had a pet lion and liked them!), but hard to guess what exactly was in the mind of whoever came up with the design and perhaps presented the idea to Caracalla (or is it conceivable he came up with the idea himself?!). It seems that in general simple explanations are better than more complicated ones, so if the design is connected to Caracalla's obsession with Alexander the great, then his parents's supposed dreams of thunderbolt (+fire) & lion, and his own like of lions seems enough! I do wonder now, considering that he did sleep in bed with a lion, if this reverse isnt the precursor of cat pics lol. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heliodromus Posted September 21, 2023 · Member Author Share Posted September 21, 2023 Could be, and I'll use that as an excuse to post a pic of my coining assistant, Gingey ! 🙂 2 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seth77 Posted September 21, 2023 · Member Share Posted September 21, 2023 Looks like the amount of meowe is off the charts. 2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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