ominus1 Posted March 21, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted March 21, 2023 Todays haul, a Denier of Louis the Pious, i've been after one of these for quite some time it seems and now i have him...he ruled with his father Charlemagne until his death and then was overthrown by his sons.....TWICE! and of course a jeton (for now) 'for' the Dauphin Louis 17th.... POST YOUR COINS/COMMENTS 🙂 Loius the Pious, 814-840, 21mm 1.62gms, Louis XVI for Louis XVII 24mm, 3.41gms 17 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrefn Posted March 21, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted March 21, 2023 Congratulations. Lovely Class 3 denier of Louis the Pious. Louis standardized the currency throughout the Carolingian Empire with this Christiana Religio type. Sadly, the reform also did away with mint information. I consulted my copy of Coupland to see if I could attribute your coin to a particular mint, but I do not feel confident making a determination. The sprawling “S” in XRISTIANA on the following coin suggests Orléans as its mint site. The Latin style cross in the temple on your coin may be a clue to its origin. 9 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeandAcre Posted March 21, 2023 · Member Share Posted March 21, 2023 @ominus1, with apologies for taking this long, Congratulations! To wallow in the obvious (...never stopped me before), that's one of the most iconic Carolingians in the series. Not to mention the earliest reign that most of us can seriously contemplate. I like the jeton, too, in its own right and for being the bookend on the other side of the shelf! @Hrefn, yours is very cool, too. I like how the roof is closer in style to German coins, from the Ottonians on, that riff on the temple motif. And it's Awesome that you have Coupland! All I have are Depeyrot (3rd ed., 2008) and Nouchy. --@ominus1, if I forget to set you up with references from those after work today, please holler! Here's mine. Needless to say, I'm clueless about the mint. 8 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ominus1 Posted March 21, 2023 · Supporter Author Share Posted March 21, 2023 (edited) here's a better pic of the Louis l reverse...i have learned much just since posting these...thanks @Hrefn...and of course this is also@JeandAcre's neck o de woods...and i can't help to see Pepe LePew in my mind when viewing Louis 1st nickname in French...:P ^^ 🙂 Edited March 21, 2023 by ominus1 add 6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrefn Posted March 21, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted March 21, 2023 44 minutes ago, JeandAcre said: @ominus1, with apologies for taking this long, Congratulations! To wallow in the obvious (...never stopped me before), that's one of the most iconic Carolingians in the series. Not to mention the earliest reign that most of us can seriously contemplate. I like the jeton, too, in its own right and for being the bookend on the other side of the shelf! @Hrefn, yours is very cool, too. I like how the roof is closer in style to German coins, from the Ottonians on, that riff on the temple motif. And it's Awesome that you have Coupland! All I have are Depeyrot (3rd ed., 2008) and Nouchy. --@ominus1, if I forget to set you up with references from those after work today, please holler! Here's mine. Needless to say, I'm clueless about the mint. @JeandAcre you very kindly recommended Nouchy and Depeyrot to me when I made my first serious foray into Carolingian coins, and I managed to secure both books. I have the 4th ed. of Depeyrot. I don’t know how much it may differ from the third edition, except I notice the number of examples examined by the author, which is probably our best proxy for the scarcity of these coins, has increased slightly for some coins. I bought Coupland a couple of months ago, and I just finished reading it, so the review I promised on the Carolingian literature thread will be coming soon. But the gist of that post will be: expensive book, author has an astonishing knowledge of the entire corpus of Carolingian coins and hoards, some very interesting insights, but I believe author’s primary interest in the material is not as an aficionado but sees the coins as data points to deduce more about the Carolingian economy and history. I also see the coins as historical documents, but I also see art and beauty. Coupland strikes me as a numismatist, but not a numismophile. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeandAcre Posted March 21, 2023 · Member Share Posted March 21, 2023 5 hours ago, ominus1 said: here's a better pic of the Louis l reverse...i have learned much just since posting these...thanks @Hrefn...and of course this is also@JeandAcre's neck o de woods...and i can't help to see Pepe LePew in my mind when viewing Louis 1st nickname in French...:P ^^ 🙂 Busted! My all-time favorite cartoon character! Need to find a tee shirt someday. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeandAcre Posted March 21, 2023 · Member Share Posted March 21, 2023 5 hours ago, Hrefn said: @JeandAcre you very kindly recommended Nouchy and Depeyrot to me when I made my first serious foray into Carolingian coins, and I managed to secure both books. I have the 4th ed. of Depeyrot. I don’t know how much it may differ from the third edition, except I notice the number of examples examined by the author, which is probably our best proxy for the scarcity of these coins, has increased slightly for some coins. I bought Coupland a couple of months ago, and I just finished reading it, so the review I promised on the Carolingian literature thread will be coming soon. But the gist of that post will be: expensive book, author has an astonishing knowledge of the entire corpus of Carolingian coins and hoards, some very interesting insights, but I believe author’s primary interest in the material is not as an aficionado but sees the coins as data points to deduce more about the Carolingian economy and history. I also see the coins as historical documents, but I also see art and beauty. Coupland strikes me as a numismatist, but not a numismophile. Many thanks, @Hrefn; I'd forgotten about that. Eventually, I'd like to ask you if you could look for one particular, relatively arcane issue in Depeyrot's 4th edition ...but I'm just home from work. I'm really liking your nuances about esthetics and historical significance. Yes, there are several medieval subseries, including the earlier phases, that are really powerful on an esthetic level, Carolingian being a very prominent example. I've spent too much time on the borders of Coupland Land, but lately am rediscovering the esthetic dimension. Thanks for the nudge! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeandAcre Posted March 22, 2023 · Member Share Posted March 22, 2023 (edited) On 3/20/2023 at 5:02 PM, ominus1 said: Todays haul, a Denier of Louis the Pious, i've been after one of these for quite some time it seems and now i have him...he ruled with his father Charlemagne until his death and then was overthrown by his sons.....TWICE! and of course a jeton (for now) 'for' the Dauphin Louis 17th.... POST YOUR COINS/COMMENTS 🙂 Loius the Pious, 814-840, 21mm 1.62gms, Louis XVI for Louis XVII 24mm, 3.41gms @ominus1, as threatened, here's what I have for references for this. Not knowing what you've got, I hope they're to some point. Georges Depeyrot, Le Numeraire Carolingien : Corpus des Monnaies. 3rd ed., 2008 --cf. @Hrefn's notice of the 4th edition. P. 42. Under the introductory section on 'Typologie' (the rest of the book is arranged by mints, which, right, this issue doesn't have), this is [Major Type] #8 [the temple motif], continued with variants down to Lothaire I (817-855). Predictably, this is variant A1, Louis le Pieux. Patrick Nouchy, Les Rois Carolingiens de Francie Occidentale. 1994. P. 86. Under Louis (this one's arranged by reign), this is #5. This is the primary type, vs. the two variants he lists. He assigns those (5A, 5B) to specific mints, but, especially in reference to@Hrefn's citation of Coupland, this was really early days in the research to go about tackling that issue. Hope that was any use! Edited March 22, 2023 by JeandAcre 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FitzNigel Posted March 22, 2023 · Member Share Posted March 22, 2023 Love the Louis! I do need to get some Carolingian coins - closest I have is a Norman imitation: Early Medieval - Carolingian Normandy; Anonymous (Viking/Rollo-William Longsword), 10th c. (920s); AR Denier, 16mm x 0.57 grams; Obv.: Counterclockwise legend +DOVVICVSIMP around small cross; Rev.: Clockwise legend XRISTIANA REL around temple; Ref.: Moesgaard, ‘A Survey of Coin Production and Currency in Normandy,’ 109-111; Note: Imitation of a Louis the Pious denier 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrefn Posted March 23, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted March 23, 2023 7 hours ago, FitzNigel said: Love the Louis! I do need to get some Carolingian coins - closest I have is a Norman imitation: Early Medieval - Carolingian Normandy; Anonymous (Viking/Rollo-William Longsword), 10th c. (920s); AR Denier, 16mm x 0.57 grams; Obv.: Counterclockwise legend +DOVVICVSIMP around small cross; Rev.: Clockwise legend XRISTIANA REL around temple; Ref.: Moesgaard, ‘A Survey of Coin Production and Currency in Normandy,’ 109-111; Note: Imitation of a Louis the Pious denier I spent a while trying to make sense of the inscription, and now I see it is retrograde +DOVVICVS IMP with the final two letters legate. They left off the LU- or HLU- in HLUDOVVICVS IMP. So this is indeed an immobilization of a Louis the Pious denier. The other amazing thing is it is only about 1/3 the mass of a standard Louis the Pious denier. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FitzNigel Posted March 23, 2023 · Member Share Posted March 23, 2023 1 hour ago, Hrefn said: I spent a while trying to make sense of the inscription, and now I see it is retrograde +DOVVICVS IMP with the final two letters legate. They left off the LU- or HLU- in HLUDOVVICVS IMP. So this is indeed an immobilization of a Louis the Pious denier. The other amazing thing is it is only about 1/3 the mass of a standard Louis the Pious denier. Yep - I did a post on it back on CoinTalk before the migration here. It’s a neat coin, but I need to get an example of the original 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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