Jump to content

A really sweet early feudal, 10th-c. 'GDR' (Carolingian immobilization from Troyes


JeandAcre
 Share

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

This arrived the other day, from a well-known French dealer who lists on ebay and Delcampe.  The weirdness is that, despite his photographic aptitude --maybe not the best, but better than I can begin to aspire to-- it's only that much better dans le main.

image.thumb.png.a6352079aff977c7b0057c7aebe3a527.png

image.thumb.png.af309ac32b11e95449fec6a4a4045240.png

 

Cf. Christophe Adam,  Corpus des Monnaies Féodales Champenoises.  (Troyes, 2018 --and, Yes, @seth77, please receive my ongoing, sincere apologies that, going back to early issues of Provins, my second-hand scanner still isn't cooperating with downloads, never mind uploads.  At least until anyone more technologically literate than I'll ever be can fix it.) With a total of 14 entries and plates for the subtype, he lists this as "Type 3, 'entre 956 et 995; monogramme type tresor de Sceaux."   (Pp. 18-23; nos. 11-25, avec plates.)

Obv.  Degraded Carolingian, 'KAROLVS' monogram.  From 5 o'clock (with badly rendered lettering, but not 'blundered' per se, compromising the legend itself): 'CRATIA DI REX'.  ('GRATIA D[OMIN]I REX;' by the grace of God.)

Rev.  Cross potent (a cool variant, in itself).  +TRECAS CIVI.

In spite of the evident clipping, this is my new favorite of the couple of other examples I have.  --For which I can only find pics of the obverse of one.

...It would be terrific fun if anyone contributed any coins of medieval Champagne.  Or anything else 10th c. CE, from anywhere.

Edited by JeandAcre
  • Like 9
  • Yes 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Nice coin! I always liked carolingian(-like) coins, especially the ones with Karolus monogram. I'm afraid I don't have anything relevant to share, but I'm sure other members will.

Edited by Lhevae
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I really wish someone would post some Carolingian or related stuff.  Meanwhile, here are my all-time favorite example of a 'GDR' immobilization, and an instance of Carolingians themselves imitating LRB prototypes.  Yep, both posted at varous times on the other forum.

image.jpeg.24e5ec824035b4bf2a4250520c7dca39.jpeg

Richard I, Count of Rouen (the future Duchy of Normandy) 942-996.  Denier, found, conspicuously underattributed, on French ebay.  To all appearances, this is a die match to Plate 6047 of Dumas, Trésor de Fécamp (cf. pp.104-5).

Rev. (as rendered by Dumas:)  +I/\I[cruciform 'O']C/\SH CIT/\S.  Corresponding to the Carolingian prototype of Charles the Bald (King of the West Franks 840-877): +HBAIOCASM CIVITAS. (cf. Depeyrot, 3rd ed., 2008, No. 127).

Obv. Degraded 'KAROLVS' monogram.  (From 10 o'clock:) +CP/\TI/\ D-I REX.  ('+GRATIA D-I [/DEI] REX;' Depeyrot, loc. cit.)

...Of course, after this happened, I had to get an example of the prototype.  In the case of this one, along with a Charles the Bald denier of Rouen, it really feels as if, for condition, I just kind of lucked out.  Right, here the obverse legend begins a 9 o'clock.

image.jpeg.2829611025687dcf78162690e70fb0cd.jpegimage.jpeg.dd300122b5d2b62bdd72a60cdfbdb0be.jpeg

Right; Depeyrot, loc. cit 

...And this is the example of Charles himself imitating the LRB 'camp-gate' motif.

image.thumb.jpeg.76d8b7e59d656e654448ee952038d78c.jpeg

Charles the Bald; denier of Orleans.

Obv. Cross; +CARLVS REX FR.

Rev. Neo-Roman camp gate; (from 6 o'clock:) +AVRE[...]LI[...]ANIS.

Depeyrot 725.

Here's one example of the collective prototype; Constantine II as Caesar, Trier mint. image.jpeg.93e44102f01ee3262583b471158d8241.jpeg

...I have to like how, back to the 4th and 5th centuries, the various Germanic tribes who conquered the western Roman Empire were deeply invested in what was left of the Classical tradition.  The so-called Carolingian and 12th-Century Renaissances weren't merely a cumulative anticipation of the big one, from the 14th (Giotto, anyone?) and 15th centuries through the 16th.  They reflect a remarkabe level of engagement with a cultural heritage which was effectively foreign to the ethnic origins of most of the ruling classes.  Sustained, with wildly varying levels of success, over the entire interval. 

Edited by JeandAcre
  • Like 6
  • Yes 1
  • Cookie 1
  • Mind blown 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Carolingian:  Silver denier of Louis the Child, gilded and probably ex jewelry, despite which it is in very nice shape.  He died aged 17 or 18.  Ultimately succeeded by Henry the Fowler.  The Magyars ravaged his kingdom for much of his reign.   The mint of Strasbourg was first Argentoratum, roughly the Silver or Treasure Fort, in Gaulish, and the reverse legend refers to this.  Purchased 2/2014 

image.thumb.png.01c6618082202f72f7cbefa15afa5a29.pngimage.thumb.png.868e6d6f9754db1edbc9fa007580e099.png

  • Like 6
  • Yes 1
  • Cookie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A denier of Charles the Bald, of Quentovic.   For which I probably overpaid, but it is a nice example. image.thumb.jpeg.a42dab3f7068efdff3762b3af8c9dfbe.jpeg

image.thumb.jpeg.3907dd0170ad8c020204a887d0d8f385.jpeg\\

The spelling on the back makes me wonder if the town name was pronounced QVentoVic  or  QWentoWic   

 

  • Like 6
  • Yes 1
  • Popcorn 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Hrefn said:

Carolingian:  Silver denier of Louis the Child, gilded and probably ex jewelry, despite which it is in very nice shape.  He died aged 17 or 18.  Ultimately succeeded by Henry the Fowler.  The Magyars ravaged his kingdom for much of his reign.   The mint of Strasbourg was first Argentoratum, roughly the Silver or Treasure Fort, in Gaulish, and the reverse legend refers to this.  Purchased 2/2014 

image.thumb.png.01c6618082202f72f7cbefa15afa5a29.pngimage.thumb.png.868e6d6f9754db1edbc9fa007580e099.png

Hi Hrefn,

That kicks something all over the block, gilding, ex jewelry, or not.  The reign, just by itself, is summarily beyond my means.  And any fan of Carolingian has to love those horizontal legends in the reverse fields.  The sheer rarity of the reign and issue has me wanting to believe that the giding might be more contemporaneous than one might otherwise think.

Edited by JeandAcre
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, Hrefn said:

A denier of Charles the Bald, of Quentovic.   For which I probably overpaid, but it is a nice example. image.thumb.jpeg.a42dab3f7068efdff3762b3af8c9dfbe.jpeg

image.thumb.jpeg.3907dd0170ad8c020204a887d0d8f385.jpeg\\

The spelling on the back makes me wonder if the town name was pronounced QVentoVic  or  QWentoWic   

 

...And that's the finest example of Quentovic I've ever seen.  Yikes.  Given how many of the ones that show up on the market are obvious immobilizations, this one is looking very emphatically contemporaneous to Charles the Bald, on the basis both of style and module.  Not to mention apparent fineness.

Regarding anything this early, I couldn't tell you anything remotely intelligent about the phonetic, or even precise alphabetic value of those double 'V's.  --Except that they're really cool.  In various places (some of them never posted, anywhere), I got into the evolution of the 'W,' but only over the 11th and 12h centuries, in French Feudal deniers and Angevin English pennies.  ...For now, I'm just munching my popcorn!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 Nice coins Jean!  (Gonna take awhile to get used to the new name!). Well, my write-up on Champagne was on the other forum, but here is my one from Troyes (forgive the strange formatting underneath - still figuring this out and on a phone…)

101904304_Med-05a-FCh-1180-HenryII-D-Troyes-4145.jpg.25d1e96efcae7d436fe0f2dfa7cfe2a4.jpg
French Feudal - Champagne

Henry II, r. 1181-97

Troyes Mint, AR Denier, 20.52 mm x 0.9 grams

Obv.: +HENRI COMES, Cross Pattee with annulet in 2nd and 3rd quarters

Rev.: +TRECAS CIVITAS, TEBO Monogram

Ref.: Roberts 4145

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Terrific to see you here, @FitzNigel!  Despite your three posts, already, I had no idea you'd actually joined!

...Yeah, I had lots of stuff on Champagne on a document that's never been published anywhere ...the fairs, the castle of Provins, the career of Jean de Brienne (fils --edit: Oops, pere --I knew I'd do that eventually), in all its phases, yada yada....  When I got to the last forum, you and @seth77 (also here) had done posts about all of that.  I feel your pain.  Meanwhile, that's a Fine Henry II!

 

Edited by JeandAcre
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I posted this on @FitzNigel's Champagne Fairs thread, which is barely later than the latest immobilizations of Quentovic. It's a rather early type of the monetary union between Provins and Sens in the larger Champagne area, before adopting the "comb type" denier (ca. 996-1000, Boudeau #1754, Adam 77). The reversed monogram of Raoul, according to Boudeau (degeneree and made to resemble a monogram of Eudes(?) according to Adam), might mark that the issue was struck under his direct authority but with the reverse legend showing Sens, which was under the rule of Renard de Sens, cousin and ally of Eudes, points to a monetary union between the two lords dating possibly as early as 975 (Adam p. 34).

provins1.thumb.jpg.7e2b78a824849ea333314415ba935474.jpg

 

AR21mm, 1.07g, grand denier, minted at the Chateau de Provins, ca. 990-995.
+ PSRIVNS CTO (S couche); monogram with strong vertical bar, croisette and annulets in the right field, horizontal E over crescent in the left field.
+ SENONS CIVI; cross.
cf. Poey d'Avant #5959-5961, p. 248; cf. Boudeau #1753, p. 224, cf. Adam Corpus 73-76 p. 39.


Boudeau lists and draws for #1751 an earlier specimen with an un-reversed version of the Raoul monogram. Then at #1753, he lists a similar examplar, but with the monogramme reverse. This is a different variation of an earlier monogram (maybe even of Raoul as Boudeau notes, or a Raoul monogram redrawn to become a monogram of Eudes himself) and not just a monogramme reverse (as per Adam).

Boudeau #1751 dates from around 975/977 as a terminus post quem. This specimen here is later, but prior to the change that happened around 996/1000, when the champ/peigne type arrived.

So its possible date is most likely at the end of the reign of Eudes I, considering the overall design, the monogram and the weight, plus the hoard information provided by the hoards of Puy (Lafaurie, Le trésor monétaire du Puy (Haute-Loire). Contribution à l’étude de la monnaie de la fin du Xe siècle) and Fecamp (F. Dumas-Dubourg, Le Trésor de Fécamp et le monnayage en Francie occidentale pendant la seconde moitié du Xe siècle).
Dumas (in Fecamp) pp. 163-4,  #6667-6674 and Pl. XI notes that "ces pieces nouvelles date a plus tard de 975- 980." In the introduction, with citation of examples establishing terminus post quem, she dates the hoard to c. 980. Lafaurie adds an even later date to the later part of the 990s. Adam dates this series 980-996. This specimen might be one of the later/final outputs of the series, perhaps even mid 990s.
 

  • Like 4
  • Popcorn 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...