Julius Germanicus Posted December 12, 2022 · Member Share Posted December 12, 2022 (edited) This Sestertius, worn but finely styled and on a large and almost medallic flan, is of a rare and historic type commemorating Rome's "victory" over the Germans during Domitian's campaigns of 83-85 against the Germanic peoples of the Chatti, Mattiaci, Vangiones, Triboci and Nemeti. Domitian pursued military actions in Germania and Dacia in an effort to shorten Rome's frontier with the barbarian tribes in order to improve the safety of the Empire until the construction of a border defense system of the Germanic-Rhaetian limes. IMP CAES DOMIT AVG GERM COS XI CENS POT PP – Laureate bust of Domitian right, wearing Aegis on his left shoulder GERMANIA CAPTA S C – Germania, as mourning female captive, supporting head with right hand, elbow on knee, seated left on crossed shields at base of trophy of arms; German captive, his hands bound behind his back, standing right, wearing Chlamys, head left, shield to right, helmet on ground Orichalcum Sestertius, Rome mint, 85 A.D. 35 mm / 25,76 g RIC II 351 (new), 278 a (old), BMCRE 325, C 136, Cayon 17, Sear 2765 The iconography of this coin is a practical duplicate of the Judaea Capta series of Vespasian and Titus. Domitian certainly pursued propagandistic goals and was eager to display his military prowess, just as his father and brother had succeeded in Judaea, he wanted to be known as conqueror of the Germans. The personification of Germania shows an attitude of deep grief, unable to raise her eyes from the ground, and the German captive standing next to her is unable to shake off the Roman yoke, with his hands tied behind his back. The state of total surrender is also underlined by the presence of the trophy, weapons rendered inoperable by the defeat.Contemporary and modern historians have long cast doubts on the proclaimed successes of Domitian in Germany, which Tacitus commented with a dismissive 'in recent times we have celebrated triumphs rather than won conquests over them [the Germans]' (Tac. Germ. 37.5).On the other hand, we have to take into account the notorious hostility of the senatorial historiography towards the last Flavian emperor, which resulted in most of his achievements being downplayed. The fact that the upper Rhine region and the Agri Decumates saw no serious barbarian invasions in the century after his reign indicates that Domitian's campaigns and measures must have been quite successful.The coin came in an old A.H. Baldwin & Sons, Ltd. envelope and I would be thankful for any further information: Please post your CAPTA coins or anything relevant! Edited December 14, 2022 by Julius Germanicus 10 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friedberg Posted December 12, 2022 · Member Share Posted December 12, 2022 Hello Julius Germanicus, we had already discussed this coin in a German-speaking numismatic forum: https://www.numismatikforum.de/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=60824&hilit=capta&start=2760#p567079 There we were of the opinion that it is probably an old cast ! Sorry to say. From whom or where did you buy the piece ? With friendly greetings from Germany 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted December 12, 2022 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted December 12, 2022 FYI, A.H. Baldwin moved to 11 Adelphi Terrace in 1971, and remained there until 2014. I would guess that the envelope dates back to the earlier part of that period, probably the 1970s. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julius Germanicus Posted December 12, 2022 · Member Author Share Posted December 12, 2022 26 minutes ago, friedberg said: Hello Julius Germanicus, we had already discussed this coin in a German-speaking numismatic forum: https://www.numismatikforum.de/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=60824&hilit=capta&start=2760#p567079 There we were of the opinion that it is probably an old cast ! Sorry to say. From whom or where did you buy the piece ? With friendly greetings from Germany Thank you very much for the info! Oh no, I hate to read things like that... Just checked the German forum - there are two opinions on the coin there, but I really don't want to take risks. I received it today from an Ebay seller in Norfolk, UK, as genuine. According to him "ownership history is available" and he accepts returns within 14 days. Are there any suspicious detail I should post enlargements of? Gruss aus Hamburg! J.G. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friedberg Posted December 12, 2022 · Member Share Posted December 12, 2022 Hello Julius Germanicus, if you are not the original buyer of this coin (07/2022), then the coin was returned to the ebay dealer. The Problem is that this piece is cleaned down to the bare metal. There are really no residue of patina visible anymore. The piece considered suspicious in the German Forum and probably represents an old cast. The RIC II 1² Domitian 351 (C) type is generally common and i wouldn't take any chances with it ! http://numismatics.org/ocre/id/ric.2_1(2).dom.351 https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?term=domitian+351+germania&category=1-2&lot=&thesaurus=1&images=1&en=1&de=1&fr=1&it=1&es=1&ot=1¤cy=usd&order=1 https://www.sixbid-coin-archive.com/#/de/search?text=domitian 351 germania With friendly greetings from Germany 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Atherton Posted December 12, 2022 · Member Share Posted December 12, 2022 I cannot tell from the photos whether the piece is cast or not. Pictures can be deceptive, but you have the additional benefit of having the coin in hand! Use a good 10x loupe to examine it. Is there a seam along the edge? Ancient deposits in the pits and cracks? Evidence of flow lines? Perhaps there is a trusted expert near you that can look at it in hand? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julius Germanicus Posted December 13, 2022 · Member Author Share Posted December 13, 2022 1 hour ago, David Atherton said: I cannot tell from the photos whether the piece is cast or not. Pictures can be deceptive, but you have the additional benefit of having the coin in hand! Use a good 10x loupe to examine it. Is there a seam along the edge? Ancient deposits in the pits and cracks? Evidence of flow lines? Perhaps there is a trusted expert near you that can look at it in hand? I don't see a seam, but could this (center left) be where the casting sprue was filed off? All pits and cracks are very shallow, I´d say less than 0,1 mm deep. I am tending towards cast now. The seller (has 100 % positive feedback) offered to take the coin back. Nevertheless I like it 🥲 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay GT4 Posted December 13, 2022 · Member Share Posted December 13, 2022 (edited) Except that the so-called bubbles are not round but appear to be jagged and sharp in areas which tends to lean more towards corrosion than casting. Nobody asked, what's the weight? Edited December 13, 2022 by Jay GT4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPK Posted December 13, 2022 · Supporter Share Posted December 13, 2022 I can't offer an opinion either way, but if I were you I would make absolutely sure the coin is a fake before returning it. Can you take better photos or send it to a dealer/TPG? I'd hate to have returned a such a nice coin (if genuine) based solely on internet opinions! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Atherton Posted December 13, 2022 · Member Share Posted December 13, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, Jay GT4 said: Nobody asked, what's the weight? It's in the OP photo of the Baldwin's envelope. Edited December 13, 2022 by David Atherton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Atherton Posted December 13, 2022 · Member Share Posted December 13, 2022 3 hours ago, Julius Germanicus said: I don't see a seam, but could this (center left) be where the casting sprue was filed off? All pits and cracks are very shallow, I´d say less than 0,1 mm deep. I am tending towards cast now. The seller (has 100 % positive feedback) offered to take the coin back. Nevertheless I like it 🥲 I see no seam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friedberg Posted December 13, 2022 · Member Share Posted December 13, 2022 Hello Julius Germanicus, the patina is important for identifying counterfeits in non-ferrous metals. However, this coin was chemically and / or electrolytically cleaned down to the bar metal. Therefore it is difficult to identify a fake from photos alone. If you are convinced of the authenticity of this coin. all is well. Otherwise i would recommend you to present the piece to a specialist retailer. In Hamburg / Germany that would be for example: Auktionshaus Tietjen+Co oHg Hofweg 14 22085 Hamburg With friendly greetings from Germany Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julius Germanicus Posted December 13, 2022 · Member Author Share Posted December 13, 2022 14 hours ago, DonnaML said: FYI, A.H. Baldwin moved to 11 Adelphi Terrace in 1971, and remained there until 2014. I would guess that the envelope dates back to the earlier part of that period, probably the 1970s. Thank you for the info, Donna! Interestingly despite this being an old envelope and the writing being with an ink pen (both pointing to the 70s or 80s), the reference number noted (RIC 351) is taken from the NEW edition of RIC Vol.II which only came out in 2007 (the old reference number was RIC 278 a). Also the weight given by the seller (22,7 g) differs from the one listed on the envelope (26,64 g). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julius Germanicus Posted December 13, 2022 · Member Author Share Posted December 13, 2022 Here is something that would speak for the authenticity of my coin: it has a different flan shape, but is from the same pair of dies as this coin that was deemed genuine and sold by CNG in 2017 (for 750 USD): https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=355715 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friedberg Posted December 13, 2022 · Member Share Posted December 13, 2022 Hello Julius Germanicus, Originals from the same pair of dies only confirm the possibility that these may have served as a mould. Künker / Osnabrück have a field service in Hamburg: https://www.kuenker.de/de/kontakt/standorte-und-partner/partner-filiale-hamburg There is also the option of sending the coin to ngc for grading (~80€). If ngc refuses to encapsulate the piece, you are safe ... . It is simply not possible to say whether this piece is real or fake based on photos. With friendly greetings from Germany 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted December 13, 2022 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted December 13, 2022 6 hours ago, Julius Germanicus said: Thank you for the info, Donna! Interestingly despite this being an old envelope and the writing being with an ink pen (both pointing to the 70s or 80s), the reference number noted (RIC 351) is taken from the NEW edition of RIC Vol.II which only came out in 2007 (the old reference number was RIC 278 a). Also the weight given by the seller (22,7 g) differs from the one listed on the envelope (26,64 g). A bit suspicious, yes? As if someone deliberately used an old Baldwin envelope to make the coin seem like it has a provenance. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julius Germanicus Posted December 14, 2022 · Member Author Share Posted December 14, 2022 (edited) On 12/13/2022 at 1:39 AM, CPK said: I can't offer an opinion either way, but if I were you I would make absolutely sure the coin is a fake before returning it. Can you take better photos or send it to a dealer/TPG? I'd hate to have returned a such a nice coin (if genuine) based solely on internet opinions! According to an X-ray fluorescence analysis and in the opinion of a major German auction company and a well-known american expert the coin looks (based on the photos) indeed to be genuine. I will send it out to certification and keep you updated. Edited December 14, 2022 by Julius Germanicus 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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