12th Century Trachea and Tetartera

[Glebe]

For those interested in 12th century trachea and tetartera I have added a note on my website designed to summarise the various issues in a compact form here: 

https://www.glebecoins.org/paleos/Notes/12th_Century_Trachea___Tetarte/12th_century_trachea___tetarte.html

The tables include figures for the mean weights of the various types as an aid to assessing their relative values.

[Simon]

Hi Ross,I saw in your article about both Metcalf and Hendy lacking a goal weight.  Metcalf did try to give an average weight to tetartera, however at the time of the publication he called them Manuel Folles, large coins in best style at 3.5gm, possible 96 coins to the pound, same as metropolitan stamena of BMC type 11. 

As for the half tetartera , the folles current in central Greece between 1.5 and 2gm. This was based on a hoard that contained 48 smaller St George coins of Manuel at 1.5 gm and the monogram coins from the same hoard heavier at 1.9gm

This is from 1964 Numismatic Chronicle Seventh series Vol IV

 

As for some of the other coins like SBCV-1933 , Sear has as a whole tetarteron and Sommer as a half, I have examples from 1.5gm to almost 6gm so I understand the confusion there.  

As for SBCV-1977 and SBCV-1979 being the same coin, I think it would be of note CLBC is the only publication to promote that theory, Metcalf, Grierson and Hendy all separated the coins. I too feel they are different monograms but very similar. 

If anyone one needs visuals for this conversation, please feel free to see my collection. It is complete and arranged by Sear number. The lead coins of Alexius I created new numbers for them tom keep them in sequence. 

The 12th Century Byzantine Empire. - Classical Numismatics Discussion - Members' Coin Gallery (forumancientcoins.com)

Simon

 

[Glebe]

7 hours ago, Simon said:

Hi Ross,I saw in your article about both Metcalf and Hendy lacking a goal weight.  Metcalf did try to give an average weight to tetartera, however at the time of the publication he called them Manuel Folles, large coins in best style at 3.5gm, possible 96 coins to the pound, same as metropolitan stamena of BMC type 11. 

As for the half tetartera , the folles current in central Greece between 1.5 and 2gm. This was based on a hoard that contained 48 smaller St George coins of Manuel at 1.5 gm and the monogram coins from the same hoard heavier at 1.9gm

This is from 1964 Numismatic Chronicle Seventh series Vol IV

 

As for some of the other coins like SBCV-1933 , Sear has as a whole tetarteron and Sommer as a half, I have examples from 1.5gm to almost 6gm so I understand the confusion there.  

As for SBCV-1977 and SBCV-1979 being the same coin, I think it would be of note CLBC is the only publication to promote that theory, Metcalf, Grierson and Hendy all separated the coins. I too feel they are different monograms but very similar. 

If anyone one needs visuals for this conversation, please feel free to see my collection. It is complete and arranged by Sear number. The lead coins of Alexius I created new numbers for them tom keep them in sequence. 

The 12th Century Byzantine Empire. - Classical Numismatics Discussion - Members' Coin Gallery (forumancientcoins.com)

Simon

 

Hi Simon,

It’s hard to judge whether S.1977 (Mgm 57) and S.1979 (Mgm 58) should be considered separate issues or not, although 1977 does seem to be significantly heavier on average than 1979.

To further confuse the issue S.1979 is described In Sear and CLBC as having large letters, when in fact Mgm 58 often comes with small or medium letters. Smaller letters are of course the norm on S.1977.

Even worse CLBC 4.4.7 actually shows S.1977 with large heavy letters, which is something I have never seen on either type. Although perhaps we shouldn't take the diagram too literally.

Ross G.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Glebe