Are Byzantine Coins Crude & Ugly or are they Misunderstood ?

[Al Kowsky]

6 minutes ago, kevikens said:

Great thread. I am always glad to see threads like this because I don't know as much about the coins or the history of an empire that tends to get short shift from both numismatists and historians. As for the question of the OP I think that for much of the history of the Empire, the Byzantines could produce high quality craftmanship in both designing and minting coinage. But for most of their coin producing history it was not essential or even desirable to do so. The emperors were not trying to terrorize their populace into complying with their policies, so no scowling Caracallas or Diocletians were required. Byzantine emperors were, or wished to be seen, as ethereal, above the more mundane matters of day to day administration, more in harmony with the Divinity than a Divinity himself. No, not a divinity but very close to the one God who rules the universe, who ought to be the one most noticed. I have here four coins that illustrate what I am driving at, good fabric, good design, good imagery and a pleasing, respectful appearance, one to inspire confidence but not hubris. From the top, a tremissis of Justinian. Though a small coin, only 1.4. grams, the Celator here has done an excellent job of making the emperor look like he knows what he is doing. It is Sear 149. The second coin is a silver hexagram of Constans II illustrating an irenic and calm confidence in an orderly transition of power (hopefully). It weighs 6.49 grams and on the reverse (still in Latin) is "God, help the Romans" and this solid chunk of silver and fatherly visage makes it seem He will. The third coin is a somewhat unusual semis of Syracuse, still in Byzantibe hands in 835 when this coin was issued showing Theofilus on both sides. It weighs in at 1.7 grams but it is somewhat debased and is probably about 18 k gold, not the 24 K gold Byzantine coins were usually still minted at. The Byzantines were under great pressure in Southern Italy at the time. It is Sear 1672. Last is an electrum nomisma of Michael VII issued just after the heavy loss to the Turks at Manzigert, with Christ, the ruler of all, reminding the faithful that all power is in His hands. Even if the gold content is debased, all's right in this world yet. It is Sear 1868 and weighs 4.4 grams.

k.kens, Thanks for posting your coins, I especially like the Sicilian gold coin ☺️.

[robinjojo]

12 hours ago, Al Kowsky said:

After seeing so many beautiful Byzantine coins I feel the urge to post a few more favorites from my collection 🤨.

Justinian I, AD 527-565 (dated year 13, 539/540). AE 40 Nummi: 22.47 gm, 41 mm, 12 h. Nicomedia Mint, Officina #2. Sear 201.

Phocas is one of the few emperors whose coin portrait is recognizable because of his long hair & long pointed beard.

 

Those are very ice examples, Al!

Here is one of my higher grade folles, encased in a slab (came that way).  I've been debating whether to free it or not.  

Maurice Tiberius, follis, Officina epsilon, Constantinople, 588-589 CE, Sear 494.

11.29 grams

 

And here's a Tiberius II Constantine follis that I cleaned with distilled water very recently.  It's still quite crusty with some rock hard green deposits, but presentable.  this coin was purchased from my local coin dealer.  I've focused on his Byzantine bronze coinage over the past few months.

Tiberius II Constantine, follis, Antioch, RY 6 (580/1 AD).

15.69 grams

[CPK]

Have to say this thread is opening up my interest more into Byzantine coins. There are certainly some beautiful examples here!

[robinjojo]

Here's a group lot that arrived today.  There are folles of Anastasius, Justin I  and Justinian I, along with some others.  One I think is a follis of Heraclius (second row, last coin right), but the portrait really doesn't look like him, but the legend suggests that it is.  I spent some time trying to get the color right for these coins - kind of tough.

This is a nice assort of early Byzantine bronzes in pretty good condition.

[Al Kowsky]

4 hours ago, robinjojo said:

Those are very ice examples, Al!

Here is one of my higher grade folles, encased in a slab (came that way).  I've been debating whether to free it or not.  

Maurice Tiberius, follis, Officina epsilon, Constantinople, 588-589 CE, Sear 494.

11.29 grams

 

And here's a Tiberius II Constantine follis that I cleaned with distilled water very recently.  It's still quite crusty with some rock hard green deposits, but presentable.  this coin was purchased from my local coin dealer.  I've focused on his Byzantine bronze coinage over the past few months.

Tiberius II Constantine, follis, Antioch, RY 6 (580/1 AD).

15.69 grams

robinjojo, I like both bronzes ☺️. Out of curiosity, how did NGC grade the slabbed coin 🤔? If you don't like the slab you can break it out, but don't lose the slab insert, it helps when selling or trading it 😜. Slabbing the Antioch bronze would be a waste of money. As a rule I don't like slabbing large bronze coins, but I did make an exception with the last big bronze posted.

[Al Kowsky]

2 hours ago, robinjojo said:

Here's a group lot that arrived today.  There are folles of Anastasius, Justin I  and Justinian I, along with some others.  One I think is a follis of Heraclius (second row, last coin right), but the portrait really doesn't look like him, but the legend suggests that it is.  I spent some time trying to get the color right for these coins - kind of tough.

This is a nice assort of early Byzantine bronzes in pretty good condition.

Those coins make an attractive sub-group for comparative study 😊.

[Al Kowsky]

7 hours ago, TheTrachyEnjoyer said:

I dont have too many beautiful Byzantines but I like this coin a lot. Theodore and Saint Theodore are present in great detail

This coin has one of my favorite depictions of Christ ever. Its a ragged flan and double struck with some damage, but I think the beauty of Christ Emmanuel still comes through. Unusual attention was given to this die, whether its the braided hair or elaborate halo. Many Byzantine coins suffer from issues post die carving. This would be a breathtaking coin if in MS (but still is IMO!)

Here is another damaged coin with great details. Zoom in and you can see the intricacy of each figures robes. Clearly, such coins in original shape would have been magnificent. Sadly, many of these types only survive in one or two examples.

 

The 1st coin has wonderful die engraving for a scyphate coin; the 2nd coin is a gem of abstraction that would have made Picasso grin; & if the 3rd coin was whole it would be a prize jewel 🤩.

[kevikens]

2 hours ago, Al Kowsky said:

robinjojo, I like both bronzes ☺️. Out of curiosity, how did NGC grade the slabbed coin 🤔? If you don't like the slab you can break it out, but don't lose the slab insert, it helps when selling or trading it 😜. Slabbing the Antioch bronze would be a waste of money. As a rule I don't like slabbing large bronze coins, but I did make an exception with the last big bronze posted.

Now that is an impressive coin, one of museum quality.

[ewomack]

Just this past week, I purchased my first Byzantine coins and they hopefully will make their way across the pond to me at a decent gallop.

I have also had the fantastic luck to have seen Basilica di San Marco in person - and without risers or any water covering the floor. Though, sadly, as I walked through it the floor squished audibly underneath with each step. My many photos (then in physical form) vanished forever during a life-changing event that I won't go into, but, suffice it to say, they are lost. Despite this, I have not forgotten its blazing gilded and heavily mosaicked interior. I need to return someday, probably the sooner the better.

I personally have always loved the look and style of Byzantine coins. I don't know what took me so long to finally dive into them. Currently, I'm making my way through an introductory text on the subject and hope to leap over next to the Sear book for a full plunge. I expect to accumulate more specimens after filling my brain some more.

Please don't stop posting pictures!

[robinjojo]

6 hours ago, Al Kowsky said:

robinjojo, I like both bronzes ☺️. Out of curiosity, how did NGC grade the slabbed coin 🤔? If you don't like the slab you can break it out, but don't lose the slab insert, it helps when selling or trading it 😜. Slabbing the Antioch bronze would be a waste of money. As a rule I don't like slabbing large bronze coins, but I did make an exception with the last big bronze posted.

I'll need to pull out of the box tomorrow.  Yes, I've broken other coins out of slabs and retained the slab's label with the ID number.

That Justinian I follis is absolutely gorgeous!

My Nicomedia Justinian I follis, year 13 shows just how crude these folles can get.  The dies for my coin are a lot cruder compared to yours, as well as the strike, wear and flan quality.

Justinian, follis Nicomedia, Officina B, year 13 (539/40 AD).  From Roma E-Sale 98, lot 1663.

43mm; 23.48 grams

 

Edited August 8, 2022 by robinjojo

[Simon]

On 8/6/2022 at 11:31 PM, Severus Alexander said:

Second, Byzantine artists were also a huge influence on the Italian Renaissance.

The fall of Constantinople was one of the factors that created the Renaissance, the older works of the Greeks and Romans were shunned in Christian medieval (Pre-Renaissance) it took the fall of Constantinople and the refugees that arrived in the west to bring the tales of ancient Greece and Rome and the written words to the Italians and reintroduced their own history to them. Also remember the recapturing of Spain from the moors was part of this. The Muslims also treasured the works of the Greeks. 

It was also during the translation of these works that a hate of the Eastern Roman refugees came into focus. Before the fall of Constantinople in 1453, the Eastern Roman Empire was known as the Romans by the occupants of the empire AND the surrounding enemies. In Italy they were known as the Greeks. The Italians when translating the Eastern Roman literature renamed the empire as Byzantine, A name no person in the Empire ever used, it was a reference to the culture that lived there before the Romans, the city that Constantine built his new Rome on. The Italian revival of the word was used to disassociate the now Muslim city from the Roman Empire.

The name was first attributed incorrectly to Hierymonymus Wolf, who was paid to translate into Latin a group of Greek texts. He did not use the term but the book that was issued had the term in the title. (I assume who paid him named it) The name Byzantium came into common usage in late 

Mr. Wolf had no love for the Eastern Romans. His Words

"I am surprised, not sorry, that such dregs and a bilge water of an iniquitous people so long remained unmolested, and were not conquered earlier"

So, the word Byzantine was born from a contempt for a people who called themselves Roman. It later became easier to describe the time period, later authors did not help. So I try not to use the word myself. 

Several good books of come out on the subject one is "The invention of Byzantium in Early Modern Europe." by Nathanael Aschenbrenner. Another called Romanland I have not started yet. 

But without the fall of Constantinople, the Renaissance would have started much later or not at all. 

[Al Kowsky]

4 hours ago, robinjojo said:

I'll need to pull out of the box tomorrow.  Yes, I've broken other coins out of slabs and retained the slab's label with the ID number.

That Justinian I follis is absolutely gorgeous!

My Nicomedia Justinian I follis, year 13 shows just how crude these folles can get.  The dies for my coin are a lot cruder compared to yours, as well as the strike, wear and flan quality.

Justinian, follis Nicomedia, Officina B, year 13 (539/40 AD).  From Roma E-Sale 98, lot 1663.

43mm; 23.48 grams

 

That coin was a great buy for the hammer price of 35 GBP ☺️!

[Al Kowsky]

3 hours ago, Simon said:

The fall of Constantinople was one of the factors that created the Renaissance, the older works of the Greeks and Romans were shunned in Christian medieval (Pre-Renaissance) it took the fall of Constantinople and the refugees that arrived in the west to bring the tales of ancient Greece and Rome and the written words to the Italians and reintroduced their own history to them. Also remember the recapturing of Spain from the moors was part of this. The Muslims also treasured the works of the Greeks. 

It was also during the translation of these works that a hate of the Eastern Roman refugees came into focus. Before the fall of Constantinople in 1453, the Eastern Roman Empire was known as the Romans by the occupants of the empire AND the surrounding enemies. In Italy they were known as the Greeks. The Italians when translating the Eastern Roman literature renamed the empire as Byzantine, A name no person in the Empire ever used, it was a reference to the culture that lived there before the Romans, the city that Constantine built his new Rome on. The Italian revival of the word was used to disassociate the now Muslim city from the Roman Empire.

The name was first attributed incorrectly to Hierymonymus Wolf, who was paid to translate into Latin a group of Greek texts. He did not use the term but the book that was issued had the term in the title. (I assume who paid him named it) The name Byzantium came into common usage in late 

Mr. Wolf had no love for the Eastern Romans. His Words

"I am surprised, not sorry, that such dregs and a bilge water of an iniquitous people so long remained unmolested, and were not conquered earlier"

So, the word Byzantine was born from a contempt for a people who called themselves Roman. It later became easier to describe the time period, later authors did not help. So I try not to use the word myself. 

Several good books of come out on the subject one is "The invention of Byzantium in Early Modern Europe." by Nathanael Aschenbrenner. Another called Romanland I have not started yet. 

But without the fall of Constantinople, the Renaissance would have started much later or not at all. 

Simon, I think most historians & serious collectors of Byzantine coins share your point of view, however, the label Byzantine has been around so long it appears to be cemented in our vocabulary now 😒. Indeed the Byzantine Empire was nothing more than the continuation of the Roman Empire, but an emotional division occurred between between Romans (Italians) & Byzantines when the official language of the Byzantine Empire was changed from Latin to Greek. Differences in languages can be a powerful barrier....

[JeandAcre]

After the brilliantly incisive comments of @Severus Alexander and several other people here, I can only hazard this, by way of reiterating their central emphasis.  Is there really any point in comparing a Rembrandt to something from Picasso's Analytical Cubist period?  As if there was some 'objective' set of criteria, rather than two completely, very purposively distinct esthetics at work?

My favorite anonymous follis.

[Al Kowsky]

2 hours ago, JeandAcre said:

After the brilliantly incisive comments of @Severus Alexander and several other people here, I can only hazard this, by way of reiterating their central emphasis.  Is there really any point in comparing a Rembrandt to something from Picasso's Analytical Cubist period?  As if there was some 'objective' set of criteria, rather than two completely, very purposively distinct esthetics at work?

My favorite anonymous follis.

You can't compare one art form to another & say which one is better, but you can make critical assessments within an art form to determine what is superior & what is inferior. That was my main purpose in posting this thread. If any collector who was turned-off by Byzantine coinage has decided to take a closer look at this coinage, that will make me even happier ☺️.

[JeandAcre]

Thank you, Lots, @Al Kowsky, for your invaluable nuance on this point. 

--Really less a nuance than an integral dimension of your central thesis.  Yes, in the smoke of rhetorical battle, I, um, completely overlooked it.

[Simon]

3 hours ago, JeandAcre said:

Is there really any point in comparing a Rembrandt to something from Picasso's Analytical Cubist period? 

You are correct but you would not have had Picasso as you know him without Rembrandt. You would not have Rembrandt without Albrecht Durer. All art builds off of it predecessors. 

I would expect this is true of Eastern Roman coinage and Roman coinage  and Greek coinage.  I remember reading about  Spiritualism and old Greek philosophy that  True Beauty lies from within. So portraits were no longer flattering but abstract as some of the late byzantine coins were excellent examples of.

[JeandAcre]

26 minutes ago, Simon said:

You are correct but you would not have had Picasso as you know him without Rembrandt. You would not have Rembrandt without Albrecht Durer. All art builds off of it predecessors. 

I would expect this is true of Eastern Roman coinage and Roman coinage  and Greek coinage.  I remember reading about  Spiritualism and old Greek philosophy that  True Beauty lies from within. So portraits were no longer flattering but abstract as some of the late byzantine coins were excellent examples of.

@Simon, you're right ...except that, in art (including applied arts, as in numismatics), as well as history generally, the notion of easy, consistent, linear progress --without various burps and bumps all along the road, which can be fascinating in themselves-- is effectively chimerical.  

...Thank you, I'm already quoting myself, Not you, but from here, the concept of 'linear progress' verges on the innately oxymoronic.  Throw the dimension of time into any (...um, wait for it) process, and you've already opened a Pandora's box.  Just starting with contingency being effectively written into the script.  By comparison with what happens in real time, an easy, accretive progression comes across more as an otherwise inert logical construct than as a characterization of reality. 

Yes, Picasso was obviously familiar with Rembrandt; his earliest painting (when he was already a prodigy) was his most naturalistic.  But he took his own sweet agency regarding what he chose to take on from Rembrandt, as an active influence.

Just in case you haven't gotten here yet, I think history (and art, etc.) is as well characterized as being cyclical as lineal.  Neither is big enough to contain the aggregate reality, but of the two, that's my pretty emphatic preference. 

Edited August 8, 2022 by JeandAcre

[robinjojo]

On 8/7/2022 at 4:35 PM, Al Kowsky said:

robinjojo, I like both bronzes ☺️. Out of curiosity, how did NGC grade the slabbed coin 🤔? If you don't like the slab you can break it out, but don't lose the slab insert, it helps when selling or trading it 😜. Slabbing the Antioch bronze would be a waste of money. As a rule I don't like slabbing large bronze coins, but I did make an exception with the last big bronze posted.

NGC graded the Maurice Tiberius follis choice AU, with a 4 for strike and 5 for surfaces.  I suppose that's correct, though I don't really like numeric grading; it creates the appearance of accuracy for what is a basically subjective assessment.  But, NGC is doing okay using this approach.  Really old grading or the old European grading would probably have put my coin in the EF category, but that would have been a long time ago.

 

[Curtis JJ]

A few of my Eastern Roman Empire greatest hits (beginning with Anastasius), illustrating many of the ups-and-downs and lefts-and-rights of "Byzantine" artistic development and political-economic history. In chronological order, though I see I've left some gaps -- none of my Anonymous folles are presentable, and my Constantine XI Stavraton is in the shop 😊

 

[Al Kowsky]

7 hours ago, Curtis JJ said:

A few of my Eastern Roman Empire greatest hits (beginning with Anastasius), illustrating many of the ups-and-downs and lefts-and-rights of "Byzantine" artistic development and political-economic history. In chronological order, though I see I've left some gaps -- none of my Anonymous folles are presentable, and my Constantine XI Stavraton is in the shop 😊

 

Curtis, This is an excellent representation of different types in gold, silver, copper & electrum ☺️!

[TheTrachyEnjoyer]

On 8/7/2022 at 11:07 AM, kevikens said:

Great thread. I am always glad to see threads like this because I don't know as much about the coins or the history of an empire that tends to get short shrift from both numismatists and historians. As for the question of the OP I think that for much of the history of the Empire, the Byzantines could produce high quality craftmanship in both designing and minting coinage. But for most of their coin producing history it was not essential or even desirable to do so. The emperors were not trying to terrorize their populace into complying with their policies, so no scowling Caracallas or Diocletians were required. Byzantine emperors were, or wished to be seen, as ethereal, above the more mundane matters of day to day administration, more in harmony with the Divinity than a Divinity himself. No, not a divinity but very close to the one God who rules the universe, who ought to be the one most noticed. I have here four coins that illustrate what I am driving at, good fabric, good design, good imagery and a pleasing, respectful appearance, one to inspire confidence but not hubris. From the top, a tremissis of Justinian. Though a small coin, only 1.4. grams, the Celator here has done an excellent job of making the emperor look like he knows what he is doing. It is Sear 149. The second coin is a silver hexagram of Constans II illustrating an irenic and calm confidence in an orderly transition of power (hopefully). It weighs 6.49 grams and on the reverse (still in Latin) is "God, help the Romans" and this solid chunk of silver and fatherly visage makes it seem He will. The third coin is a somewhat unusual semis of Syracuse, still in Byzantibe hands in 835 when this coin was issued showing Theofilus on both sides. It weighs in at 1.7 grams but it is somewhat debased and is probably about 18 k gold, not the 24 K gold Byzantine coins were usually still minted at. The Byzantines were under great pressure in Southern Italy at the time. It is Sear 1672. Last is an electrum nomisma of Michael VII issued just after the heavy loss to the Turks at Manzigert, with Christ, the ruler of all, reminding the faithful that all power is in His hands. Even if the gold content is debased, all's right in this world yet. It is Sear 1868 and weighs 4.4 grams.

 

[Al Kowsky]

I'm going to post one last object for this thread, the last Byzantine artifact acquired about three years ago, a bronze enkolpion. Encolpia were small reliquary cross pendants made in two pieces & hinged together on the top & bottom. They were meant to hold something personal & sacred to the owner. They could have had a small wish or prayer written on parchment or cloth, a lock of hair from a relative, ashes from a funeral pyre, or a ground sample from a holy site. Unfortunately many of these encolpia have been damaged by curious collectors & dealers who wanted to see what was inside the cross ☹️. Luckily this encolpion wasn't 😊. The hanging bail & hinge on the bottom are frozen in place by corrosion. 

Byzantine Encolpion, 9th-11th Century, AE 24.5 gm, 3.07 in. long, .281 in. thick. The obverse depicts a cruciform Christ Pantokrator, cross above, & IC XC infield. The reverse depicts the Virgin Mary Orans, MP OV above.

Edited September 2, 2022 by Al Kowsky
spelling correction