Article on ORICHALCUM

[Alegandron]

 

https://allthatsinteresting.com/orichalcum?utm_source=join1440&utm_medium=email&utm_placement=newsletter

[sand]

Thanks @Alegandron. I enjoyed reading the article.

An interesting question, mentioned in the article, is whether the orichalcum mentioned by the ancient Greeks Hesiod and Homer in the 7th century BC, and mentioned by the ancient Greek Plato in the 4th century BC in his description of the mythical Atlantis, was the same orichalcum that the Romans used to mint some of their coins during the late 1st century BC and thereafter, such as the above Nero sestertius.

The article says, that "in 2015, dozens of ingots of orichalcum were found in a 2,600-year-old shipwreck off the coast of Sicily", which would be approximately 600 BC, and therefore probably a Greek ship. But, how does anyone know, that those ingots were what the ancient Greeks called "orichalcum"? Here's a photo from the article, of the "Ingots of orichalcum found in a shipwreck off the coast of Sicily", according to the article.

Here's a Wikipedia article on orichalcum. The Wikipedia article mentions the shipwreck ingots, but it doesn't say that those ingots are orichalcum. It seems that the Wikipedia article may be more accurate than the above article, in that aspect. Also, the Wikipedia article says that the ship was dated to 2100 years ago, which would be approximately 100 BC. I don't know which article is correct regarding the dating of the shipwreck, but other articles at which I've glanced, seem to agree with the above article, that the shipwreck is from approximately 600 BC, and not the Wikipedia article :    Orichalcum - Wikipedia 

Here's a link to a paper on the subject : View of FIRST DISCOVERY OF ORICHALCUM INGOTS FROM THE REMAINS OF A 6 TH CENTURY BC SHIPWRECK NEAR GELA (SICILY) SEABED 

Edited January 7 by sand

[Alegandron]

26 minutes ago, sand said:

Thanks @Alegandron. I enjoyed reading the article.

An interesting question, mentioned in the article, is whether the orichalcum mentioned by the ancient Greeks Hesiod and Homer in the 7th century BC, and mentioned by the ancient Greek Plato in the 4th century BC in his description of the mythical Atlantis, was the same orichalcum that the Romans used to mint some of their coins, such as the above Nero sestertius.

The article says, that "in 2015, dozens of ingots of orichalcum were found in a 2,600-year-old shipwreck off the coast of Sicily", which would be approximately 600 BC, and therefore probably a Greek ship. But, how does anyone know, that those ingots were what the ancient Greeks called "orichalcum"? Here's a photo from the article, of the "Ingots of orichalcum found in a shipwreck off the coast of Sicily", according to the article.

Here's a Wikipedia article on orichalcum. The Wikipedia article mentions the shipwreck ingots, but it doesn't say that those ingots are orichalcum. It seems that the Wikipedia article may be more accurate than the above article, in that aspect. Also, the Wikipedia article says that the ship was dated to 2100 years ago, which would be approximately 100 BC. I don't know which article is correct regarding the dating of the shipwreck, but other articles at which I've glanced, seem to agree with the above article, that the shipwreck is from approximately 600 BC, and not the Wikipedia article :    Orichalcum - Wikipedia 

Here's a link to a paper on the subject : View of FIRST DISCOVERY OF ORICHALCUM INGOTS FROM THE REMAINS OF A 6 TH CENTURY BC SHIPWRECK NEAR GELA (SICILY) SEABED 

I had very similar thoughts and observations that you mention. Thanks, kinda validates my  questions…

[Deinomenid]

5 hours ago, sand said:

the orichalcum mentioned by the ancient Greeks Hesiod and Homer in the 7th century BC

Hi @sand - I'm almost wholly sure Homer doesn't mention it at all, and I know some of the other stated archaic quotes (pseudo-Hesiod and Bacchylides) don't actually use the term. I'm  not trying to make some pedantic academic comment and I apologise  if it sounds like  that, but I'm saying it because it wasn't really an ancient (truly ancient in Greek terms) word at all. The first real mention is Plato, as you state and his description is most likely of an imaginary material. If I'm right on this then the question of  -

 

5 hours ago, sand said:

was the same orichalcum that the Romans used to mint some of their coins during the late 1st century BC and thereafter

- is somewhat moot. Theopompus is really the first to fully discuss it (350BC?) where he says in Histories 109 it is an alloy of "false silver" (zinc) and copper, which aligns with later Roman definitions of orichalcum as brass.The Romans - or someone - therefore named a material after a legendary/pretend substance. I checked it in the THESAURUS LINGUAE GRAECAE and in Liddell Scott Jones and they "say" the same. [The reference to Homer below is a much later Homeric hymn, not Homer.]

ὀρεί-χαλκος, ὁ, Lat. orichalcum (which by a false etym. was freq. written aurichalcum), mountain-copper, i.e. yellow copper ore, copper or brass made from it, h.Hom.6.9, Hes.Sc.122, Stesich.88, Ibyc. Oxy.1790.42, B.Fr.68 Bgk., Pl.Criti.114e, Arist.APo.92b22, Mir.834b25, Philostr.VA2.7, 20; a mirror of it, Call.Lav.Pall.19; described by Theopomp. Hist.109 as a mixture of ψευδάργυρος and χαλκός. II. as Adj., = foreg., Suid.

 

In case of interest, the Homeric hymn to Aphrodite that is cited online as a source doesn't seem to have  it at all. This quote  is  not from the original.

On her immortal head, they placed a finely crafted crown,
beautiful and golden, and in her pierced earlobes,
they placed ornaments of orichalcum and precious gold.

Edited January 8 by Deinomenid

[sand]

44 minutes ago, Deinomenid said:

Hi @sand - I'm almost wholly sure Homer doesn't mention it at all, and I know some of the other stated archaic quotes (pseudo-Hesiod and Bacchylides) don't actually use the term. I'm  not trying to make some pedantic academic comment and I apologise  if it sounds like  that, but I'm saying it because it wasn't really an ancient (truly ancient in Greek terms) word at all. The first real mention is Plato, as you state and his description is most likely of an imaginary material. If I'm right on this then the question of  -

 

- is somewhat moot. Theopompus is really the first to fully discuss it (350BC?) where he says in Histories 109 it is an alloy of "false silver" (zinc) and copper, which aligns with later Roman definitions of orichalcum as brass.The Romans - or someone - therefore named a material after a legendary/pretend substance. I checked it in the THESAURUS LINGUAE GRAECAE and in Liddell Scott Jones and they "say" the same. [The reference to Homer below is a much later Homeric hymn, not Homer.]

ὀρεί-χαλκος, ὁ, Lat. orichalcum (which by a false etym. was freq. written aurichalcum), mountain-copper, i.e. yellow copper ore, copper or brass made from it, h.Hom.6.9, Hes.Sc.122, Stesich.88, Ibyc. Oxy.1790.42, B.Fr.68 Bgk., Pl.Criti.114e, Arist.APo.92b22, Mir.834b25, Philostr.VA2.7, 20; a mirror of it, Call.Lav.Pall.19; described by Theopomp. Hist.109 as a mixture of ψευδάργυρος and χαλκός. II. as Adj., = foreg., Suid.

 

In case of interest, the Homeric hymn is to Aphrodite -

On her immortal head, they placed a finely crafted crown,
beautiful and golden, and in her pierced earlobes,
they placed ornaments of orichalcum and precious gold.

Hello @Deinomenid. I don't find your comment pedantic at all. I'm glad that someone else, with some knowledge of the subject, has commented. I know almost nothing about the subject of orichalcum, and my knowledge of ancient Greek history and ancient Greek literature is pretty thin, compared to some Nvmis Forvms members.

I had based my statements on the following quote from the OP article : "Orichalcum first appears in the historical record in the seventh century B.C.E. with the ancient Greek poet Hesiod, and the Homeric Hymn to Aphrodite also mentions the metal."

A similar quote appears in the above Wikipedia article : "Orichalcum is first mentioned in the 7th century BC by Hesiod, and in the Homeric hymn dedicated to Aphrodite, dated to the 630s BC."

I mistakenly thought that all "Homeric Hymns" were written by Homer. But, after reading your comment, and after reading the following Wikipedia article, I now realize that not all Homeric Hymns were written by Homer.

Homeric Hymns - Wikipedia 

Maybe I'll try to find that Hesiod writing that supposedly mentions orichalcum, to see for myself, if Hesiod uses the word "orichalcum".

The Homeric hymn, which you quoted above, seems to have been written in the "630s BC" according to the above Wikipedia quote, and it seems to use the word "orichalcum". Is this not a real mention of orichalcum, before Plato?

Edited January 7 by sand

[Deinomenid]

13 minutes ago, sand said:

Maybe I'll try to find that Hesiod writing

It's a long poem and Hesiodic, rather than by him (though it's impossible to prove). It describes the shield with references to adamant (ἀδάμας), gold (χρυσός), silver (ἄργυρος), and bronze (χαλκός).

 

14 minutes ago, sand said:

The Homeric hymn, which you quoted above, seems to have been written in the "630s BC"

This is  highly likely correct. The  version some quote is much later and unattributed. The 630BC one has no mention of orichalum at all, as far as I know. I'll slightly edit  my last post to  make that clear. Here's  one translation.

https://www.uh.edu/~cldue/texts/aphrodite.html

 

So as  far as I know, there are  no early references to  it. What wikipedia means, I do not  know.