Egyptian authorities seize hundreds of ancient coins and artifacts -- or are they just cheap tourist fakes?

[DonnaML]

I think it's pretty clear that they're the latter. It's amazing how gullible the media can be when officials make claims like this. Look at the miniature Venus de Milo replicas in the back, with the arms already missing as if that were the original statue's appearance in antiquity! I imagine that the "thieves" weren't really "stealing" these artifacts from the sea, but had put them there in the first place to artificially age them. As for the coins, I'm no expert on the aes signatum, but those look suspicious to me. If anyone thinks any of these are genuine, please let us know.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/two-arrested-in-egypt-after-attempting-to-steal-hundreds-of-ancient-artifacts-from-the-bottom-of-the-sea-1.7157135

Two arrested in Egypt after attempting to steal hundreds of ancient artifacts from the bottom of the sea

 

 

Egyptian authorities have arrested two men for attempting to steal hundreds of ancient artifacts from the bottom of the sea, the country’s interior ministry said in a Monday statement.(opens in a new tab)

The men took the artifacts from the sea floor of Abu Qir Bay, near the port city of Alexandria, the ministry said. When confronted by authorities, the men said that had planned to traffic the items, according to the ministry. The men obtained all of the antiquities by diving to the bottom of the sea, it said.

Some 448 objects were taken by the men, the ministry statement said, including 305 coins, 53 statues, 41 axes, 14 bronze cups, 12 spears, and three statue heads.

The items date back to Greek and Roman Antiquity, a period that lasted about 900 years, from around 500 BCE to 400 CE.

Egyptian authorities said that nearly 450 objects had been seized, including ancient coins and statue heads. (Egyptian Interior Ministry via CNN Newsource)

Photographs released by Egypt’s interior ministry show the items after they were seized.

The artifacts, turned turquoise by layers of patina, depict objects and people from the era they are from. Some statues depict ancient soldiers in uniform, while others appear to be people draped in fabric.

The coins are also intricately carved, featuring depictions of animals including lions, elephants, turtles, dolphins, and scorpions. Two coins appear to show the immortal winged horse Pegasus from Greek mythology.

[Bannerknight]

24 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

I think it's pretty clear that they're the latter. It's amazing how gullible the media can be when officials make claims like this. Look at the miniature Venus de Milo replicas in the back, with the arms already missing as if that were the original statue's appearance in antiquity! I imagine that the "thieves" weren't really "stealing" these artifacts from the sea, but had put them there in the first place to artificially age them. As for the coins, I'm no expert on the aes signatum, but those look suspicious to me. If anyone thinks any of these are genuine, please let us know.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/two-arrested-in-egypt-after-attempting-to-steal-hundreds-of-ancient-artifacts-from-the-bottom-of-the-sea-1.7157135

Two arrested in Egypt after attempting to steal hundreds of ancient artifacts from the bottom of the sea

 

 

Egyptian authorities have arrested two men for attempting to steal hundreds of ancient artifacts from the bottom of the sea, the country’s interior ministry said in a Monday statement.(opens in a new tab)

The men took the artifacts from the sea floor of Abu Qir Bay, near the port city of Alexandria, the ministry said. When confronted by authorities, the men said that had planned to traffic the items, according to the ministry. The men obtained all of the antiquities by diving to the bottom of the sea, it said.

Some 448 objects were taken by the men, the ministry statement said, including 305 coins, 53 statues, 41 axes, 14 bronze cups, 12 spears, and three statue heads.

The items date back to Greek and Roman Antiquity, a period that lasted about 900 years, from around 500 BCE to 400 CE.

Egyptian authorities said that nearly 450 objects had been seized, including ancient coins and statue heads. (Egyptian Interior Ministry via CNN Newsource)

Photographs released by Egypt’s interior ministry show the items after they were seized.

The artifacts, turned turquoise by layers of patina, depict objects and people from the era they are from. Some statues depict ancient soldiers in uniform, while others appear to be people draped in fabric.

The coins are also intricately carved, featuring depictions of animals including lions, elephants, turtles, dolphins, and scorpions. Two coins appear to show the immortal winged horse Pegasus from Greek mythology.

I would be very surprised if this find is real. But it would be interesting to hear from those in this forum knowledgeable in aes signatum. 

[John Conduitt]

Aes signatum? They look like souvenir table mats.

[Phil Anthos]

Right off the production line. 

[DonnaML]

The Egyptian government can't really believe these are genuine, right? There are plenty of qualified experts there. So why are they publicizing the seizure this way?

[Rand]

Must be part of the Public Engagement and Impact agenda

[JAZ Numismatics]

The first thing that strikes the eye is the homogenous patination. Everything looks like it was distressed in exactly the same way. As ancient coin collectors know, bronze ages in infinitely variegated ways. There isn't a chance in hell that many artifacts acquired exactly the same patina over thousands of years.

[robinjojo]

That's pretty clearly fake, applied patina.  Those objects don't look like anything salvaged from the sea.

[DonnaML]

28 minutes ago, JAZ Numismatics said:

The first thing that strikes the eye is the homogenous patination. Everything looks like it was distressed in exactly the same way. As ancient coin collectors know, bronze ages in infinitely variegated ways. There isn't a chance in hell that many artifacts acquired exactly the same patina over thousands of years.

I'm sure the response would be that they were all found lying together neatly on the sand on the sea floor, arrayed in exactly this fashion, where they had rested undisturbed for 2,000+ years. So naturally they all patinated the same way!

[mr. wiggles]

I saw this as well and was struck by not just the even patination, but also the fact they are completely and un-bent and unbroken. All the axes have perfect blades and handles, and no marine encrustations after so long?
 

Seems awfully suspicious!

Edited December 28, 2024 by mr. wiggles

[Alegandron]

10 hours ago, DonnaML said:

I'm sure the response would be that they were all found lying together neatly on the sand on the sea floor, arrayed in exactly this fashion, where they had rested undisturbed for 2,000+ years. So naturally they all patinated the same way!

They may have failed to mention that they were in a triple-wall cardboard cutaway display carton printed with “ Ancient Egyptian Gifts “ on all sides.

😄

[Rosa Potatos]

I expect they'll appear in the museum soon!

[Croatian Coin Collector]

15 hours ago, DonnaML said:

The Egyptian government can't really believe these are genuine, right? There are plenty of qualified experts there. So why are they publicizing the seizure this way?

I am not Egyptian, don't live in Egypt and haven't studied modern Egyptian society at any great length, so I can't say for certain why the Egyptian government does it, but I can tell you why ridiculous stunts like this get pulled by the government here in Croatia, they do it either to show before some election that the government agencies actually fight crime (like recently, when they arrested the members of a "criminal organization" that was illegally selling TV packages to people for less money than T-Mobile (called Hrvatski Telekom here) and the other officially sanctioned companies do), or the more common reason, to distract people from some way more serious crime that members of the government committed themselves.   

Edited December 28, 2024 by Croatian Coin Collector

[panzerman]

Seems the media falls for this type of "fake news" and will never confess to being wrong. Most of them would have no clue, in determining cheap tourist reproductions from geniune artifacts.

John

[Heliodromus]

1 hour ago, panzerman said:

Seems the media falls for this type of "fake news" and will never confess to being wrong. Most of them would have no clue, in determining cheap tourist reproductions from geniune artifacts.

John

Perhaps in an ideal world the media would question everything and editorialize about it, but investigative reporting seems to be mostly a thing of the past, and now we just get press releases published verbatim. In this case, even if their goal was to question everything, the various media covering this story would need to have their own antiquities experts rather than handing off the story to some rando (or LLM) to report on.

In this case it seems that the Egyptian authorities are reporting this as antiquities smuggling, so its not exactly "fake news" to report this. However, a knowledgeable reporter, noting that the "antiquities" appear fake might question what is really going on here. Maybe the authorities planted these as a sting to justify their own existence?

 

Edited December 28, 2024 by Heliodromus

[John Conduitt]

If they are doing it to pretend to catch smugglers, they have balls. You don't need to be an expert to see it is tourist tat. They whole thing is so easily undermined. I would guess no expert has got within a hundred miles of it.

CNN have missed a better story - Egyptian authorities fake story about catching smugglers.

[Phil Anthos]

Maybe someone should ask Zurgieh.

[Broucheion]

Hi All,

A knowledgeable scholar tells me the Egyptian government rarely uses photos of the antiquities they actually recover. Instead, they post pictures of reproductions and let it go at that. It’s a shame but they seem to think that showing the actual recovered goods is incentive for others to try.

My personal opinion (not the scholar’s) is that if the goods are not pictured they won’t be identified should they make their way onto the market through some ‘administrative error’. I hope I am just a very pessimistic person - I must be since there is no proof or even rumors of that that I have heard of.

- Broucheion 

[DonnaML]

2 hours ago, Broucheion said:

Hi All,

A knowledgeable scholar tells me the Egyptian government rarely uses photos of the antiquities they actually recover. Instead, they post pictures of reproductions and let it go at that. It’s a shame but they seem to think that showing the actual recovered goods is incentive for others to try.

My personal opinion (not the scholar’s) is that if the goods are not pictured they won’t be identified should they make their way onto the market through some ‘administrative error’. I hope I am just a very pessimistic person - I must be since there is no proof or even rumors of that that I have heard of.

- Broucheion 

If this is actually the case, then it's not only a bad idea for the reason you suggest, but the Egyptian government would be far better advised not to release any photos at all than to release ridiculous photos like these. All these photos do is make anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of what genuine antiquities look like think either that the entire story is fake, or that the Egyptian authorities who "seized" all this are complete morons. 

Edited December 30, 2024 by DonnaML

[Tejas]

Very bizarre. By publishing a photo with these obvious fakes, the policy signals that their experts think that objects like this are genuine, which could actually help the sellers of these fakes.

[Rand]

Does anyone know what museum(s) in Egypt keep numismatic collections? They must be vast and of huge historical importance.
I emailed some museums in Cairo and Alexandria asking about coins but had no reply.

Edited December 30, 2024 by Rand

[CPK]

What a joke!

[Deinomenid]

The Graeco-Roman museum in Alexandria has some(whenever it doesn’t close for multi decade renovations)  but I really would not hop on a plane to see any of the coin collections. Apologies if this is sacrilege. I don’t think they are mostly of the huge importance you mention anyway as you can access similar in almost all cases either online or at more accessible museums. 
 

[Rand]

Thank you, @Deinomenid.It is helpful to know. I am specifically interested in the Anastasian reign. I did try but could never find any publications on the finds of Anastasian gold coins in Egypt or their presence in local museums. Egypt is just absent from publications on the topic. I struggle to believe there were no such finds in Egypt as there were a few in Tunisia, Jordan, Israel, and Syria. The finds are either sitting in the local museums waiting for photography for online collections or reaching the market without being recorded. I hope for the former and am prepared to wait for a couple of decades, but I am worried about the latter being the case. The news presented as above do not give much reassurance.