Buying Raw & Selling Slabbed

[Al Kowsky]

Buying raw coins from one auction house & getting them slabbed to sell at auction houses that specialize in selling slabbed coins has been a popular trend for a long time. The motive for this trend is making a profit. Sometimes it works ☺️ & sometimes it doesn't 😒. I've done this many times with success. Timing & original purchase price are the key ingredients to success. The coin pictured below was auctioned by CNG on Aug. 26, 2020, with an estimate of $500, it sold for $4,425 😮! This rarity was in the Richard McAlee collection.

Photo courtesy of Coin Archives

The coin has been slabbed since the CNG auction & is now going up for auction by Heritage Auctions tomorrow. The coin currently has a bid of $825. Will the Heritage result top the CNG result 🤔?

Photo courtesy of Heritage Auctions

https://coins.ha.com/itm/ancients/roman-imperial/roman-imperial-septimius-severus-ad-193-211-ar-denarius-19mm-391-gm-11h-ngc-choice-xf-5-5-3-5/a/61444-21018.s?ctrack=1678632&type=featured-5-coinworld-close-61444-Severan-tem122024

 

 

[JAZ Numismatics]

Ok, but it's basically profiting off dumb rubes that think a coin is worth more in a slab than raw. I suppose they deserve it, a fool and his money being soon parted and all that. 

[-monolith-]

Soon to be purchased and cracked from it's slab.

[Qcumbor]

Apparently Heritage slabbed it but didn't even reshoot the picture, they're the same. Lazy ...

Q

[Al Kowsky]

3 hours ago, Qcumbor said:

Apparently Heritage slabbed it but didn't even reshoot the picture, they're the same. Lazy ...

Q

Strangely Heritage didn't mention the coin's rarity or that it came from the Richard McAlee collection 🤔...

[Phil Davis]

I doubt it'll bring anything like the CNG price, not with a 3 surface. (That seems unduly harsh; not the first time I've wondered about some of NGC 's grades, judging by their own standards. It's a bit rough under magnification, but still worth a 4 with the lovely toning. But what do I know?) I actually suspect this may be an opportunity for a knowledgeable collector to pick up a first rate coin at an advantageous price.

Edited December 23, 2024 by Phil Davis

[DonnaML]

6 hours ago, Qcumbor said:

Apparently Heritage slabbed it but didn't even reshoot the picture, they're the same. Lazy ...

Q

I am not sure it's the same photo. In fact, I'm fairly confident that it isn't.

CNG:

Heritage/NGC

Edited December 23, 2024 by DonnaML

[DonnaML]

2 hours ago, Al Kowsky said:

Strangely Heritage didn't mention the coin's rarity or that it came from the Richard McAlee collection 🤔...

I don't get that at all. Instead, although Heritage cites the CNG auction, in which the McAlee pedigree was mentioned, it describes the coin as being from the "L. William Libbert Collection." Who he? Do they think the people who bid at Heritage auctions have never heard of Richard McAlee?

[savitale]

It appears that L. William Libbert (or his heirs?) consigned his collection to Heritage, perhaps on the condition that it would be a named sale in his memory. It seems to be an eclectic mix of more than 500 coins, including US, ancient, world, and modern. Some are very nice and some are "stuff". I suspect he had a lot of fun building this collection, and if I had to guess I would say he did not buy the Septimius Severus denarius in 2020 (assuming he was the one who bought it from CNG) with the intention of slabbing and flipping it. 

Heritage is probably not the best venue to realize the most value for this kind of coin, in my opinion. But it certainly makes sense to me for this collection as a whole to go to Heritage if the sale is an estate.

Edited December 23, 2024 by savitale

[Qcumbor]

4 hours ago, DonnaML said:

I am not sure it's the same photo. In fact, I'm fairly confident that it isn't.

CNG:

Heritage/NGC

You're probably right @DonnaML. I was referring to the pictures shown by Al, from coins archives and from Heritage, which are apparently the same. 

Q

[shanxi]

I don't know if Heritage has consignment fees.  If so, you have to add them and the possible profit will be smaller.

(Hammer - Consignment fee) - (original Hammer + buyers fee + shipping) = Profit

In the end, you need a hammer that is more than 50% higher than your hammer to make a profit. The main profit goes to the auction houses. 

Edited December 23, 2024 by shanxi

[Rand]

My respect to the sellers of the collection, who chose an auction that offers an independent and reasonably objective grading plus good photos for buyers to make informed decisions.

There will be coins with values increased by slabbing, and those will lose in value. If this was part of a bigger collection of an experienced numismat, the chances are that they knew what they were buying, and TPG grading appreciate the quality of the collection.

I thoroughly dislike the current slabs themselves and consider them packaging. It would be good if NGC redesigned them to fit the needs of ancient coin collectors collecting smaller coins (denarii, antoniani, solidi, aurei).

[Bannerknight]

I can understand buying modern coins slabbed for investment (Unc, Ultra Cameo, etc). But what is the joy in having a coin you can never touch and feel? Or turn around in your hand? Those few I have bought have been set free.

[John Conduitt]

The drive for alternative 'investments' is a strange world. Logically, it only works if there is at least a theoretical buyer at the end of the process who wants the coin for enjoyment. But the slab and all the mark ups for 'investment' rule out all the people who would do that.

It's a similar house of cards to crypto. I was speaking to someone the other day whose business is storing wine. He has miles of underground cellars full of wine bought for investment no-one will ever drink. At some point, the wine will go off, but that doesn't seem to matter. The investors still buy it at ever higher prices.

[Ocatarinetabellatchitchix]

I invite you to look at this video from A. Berk podcast. Quite interesting…

 

[Roman Collector]

This obsession with grade makes sense, I suppose, when you need to find some way to distinguish the specimen in your collection from the 250,000,000 others just like it but makes no sense at all for ancients, for which rarity, historical importance, artistic style and eye appeal -- which is very subjective -- count more than technical grade. Here's a tale of a consignor losing money by slabbing and selling at a general numismatic venue rather than raw at a firm specializing in ancients. It comes down to the coin and targeting the collectors for which it would be in most demand. 

[Al Kowsky]

4 hours ago, shanxi said:

I don't know if Heritage has consignment fees.  If so, you have to add them and the possible profit will be smaller.

(Hammer - Consignment fee) - (original Hammer + buyers fee + shipping) = Profit

In the end, you need a hammer that is more than 50% higher than your hammer to make a profit. The main profit goes to the auction houses. 

Heritage does have a consignment fee, but it is negotiable depending on the size of the consignment.

[Al Kowsky]

13 hours ago, Phil Davis said:

I doubt it'll bring anything like the CNG price, not with a 3 surface. (That seems unduly harsh; not the first time I've wondered about some of NGC 's grades, judging by their own standards. It's a bit rough under magnification, but still worth a 4 with the lovely toning. But what do I know?) I actually suspect this may be an opportunity for a knowledgeable collector to pick up a first rate coin at an advantageous price.

I agree, a surface 4 seems more realistic. I have also read that NGC is tightening up their grading after receiving complaints that many older slabs were over-graded, & judging by the serial number, this looks like a recently slabbed coin. The surface of the coin looks natural & attractive, not over-cleaned. It must have sat raw for some time, getting a little darker.

[Al Kowsky]

1 hour ago, Roman Collector said:

This obsession with grade makes sense, I suppose, when you need to find some way to distinguish the specimen in your collection from the 250,000,000 others just like it but makes no sense at all for ancients, for which rarity, historical importance, artistic style and eye appeal -- which is very subjective -- count more than technical grade. Here's a tale of a consignor losing money by slabbing and selling at a general numismatic venue rather than raw at a firm specializing in ancients. It comes down to the coin and targeting the collectors for which it would be in most demand. 

I don't see the coin even coming close to the price CNG got for it, but in the current crazy market anything is possible 😏...

[John Conduitt]

5 minutes ago, Al Kowsky said:

It must have sat raw for some time, getting a little darker.

I suspect the darker tone is simply due to a different photographic technique. NGC take darker photos because they are trying to bring out the colours, which is another obsession of moderns collectors. CNG take the colour out post-production so want the coins better lit.

[Al Kowsky]

2 hours ago, John Conduitt said:

The drive for alternative 'investments' is a strange world. Logically, it only works if there is at least a theoretical buyer at the end of the process who wants the coin for enjoyment. But the slab and all the mark ups for 'investment' rule out all the people who would do that.

It's a similar house of cards to crypto. I was speaking to someone the other day whose business is storing wine. He has miles of underground cellars full of wine bought for investment no-one will ever drink. At some point, the wine will go off, but that doesn't seem to matter. The investors still buy it at ever higher prices.

I always enjoy a good bottle of wine with good food, but never understood the world of wine connoisseurship & paying hundreds or thousands of dollars for a single bottle 🤔.

[Al Kowsky]

3 hours ago, Bannerknight said:

I can understand buying modern coins slabbed for investment (Unc, Ultra Cameo, etc). But what is the joy in having a coin you can never touch and feel? Or turn around in your hand? Those few I have bought have been set free.

All of us don't have the compulsion to handle the coin in it's raw state in order to enjoy it's qualities ☺️.

[Al Kowsky]

14 minutes ago, John Conduitt said:

I suspect the darker tone is simply due to a different photographic technique. NGC take darker photos because they are trying to bring out the colours, which is another obsession of moderns collectors. CNG take the colour out post-production so want the coins better lit.

Your are certainly right that CNG will often monkey around with the color of a coin to show more detail, Heritage does the same thing.

[Heliodromus]

4 hours ago, Al Kowsky said:

I don't see the coin even coming close to the price CNG got for it, but in the current crazy market anything is possible 😏...

I agree - I certainly don't think that slabbing it (given that it only got 3/5 surface, and no accolades), is helping here, especially being sold via Heritage who seem to largely have a clientele who are buying the slab.

Aaron Berk, on his podcast, seems to think that slabbing bronzes is generally a bad idea, since they are rarely going to get the 5/5 grade that slab buyers are looking for.

 

[Al Kowsky]

Well the auction is over & the Septimius Severus/Geta denarius unsurprisingly sold for $2,160.00, less than half of the price it fetched at the CNG auction 😏.

My favorite of the auction was another rare dynastic issue by Severus, depicting his wife Julia Domna on the obverse & his bickering sons Caracalla & Geta on the reverse ☺️. The coin fetched $2,280.00.

The real shocker of this auction was the coin pictured below, a very common denarius of Elagabalus, that sold for $3,600.00 😮! Was the winner of this coin hypnotized by the slab grade & had no knowledge of ancient coins 🤔? The present owner is willing to sell it for $4,500.00, are there any takers out there 🤣.