Syracuse Tetradrachm

[Aziz]

Hello collectors 

I'm new to the hobby and still doing my best learning watching as many podcasts and catalogs to be a bit more familiar, i need an assistant to determine the authenticity of a coin my father bought for cheap amount of money from an antique shop , personally i don’t have high hopes for the coin but an experts eye better 100 times then my judgement . appreciate the assistance in advance 

[shanxi]

Looks like a cast fake 

 

For comparison:

a similar real example:

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=672924

Edited December 8, 2024 by shanxi

[Aziz]

1 minute ago, shanxi said:

Looks like a cast fake 

Thats what comes to my mind as well but i want to be certain before telling my Father about it, thank you for your reply 

[Phil Anthos]

Confidence is low.

[CPK]

Yeah, unfortunately a fake.

Welcome to the Forum!

[Deinomenid]

1 hour ago, Aziz said:

and still doing my best learning

Just to help this part as there’s really no question it’s a fake, a few others things might help. The surfaces are worrying, the dolphins behind the head are more like worms and they should not have lost their lower-lying fins from wear (so an issue with casting), the general appearance of the face is “off” (eyes and lips etc) though that’s hard to know if you haven’t seen many. Also check the weight and look at the edges. They might be “fine” but it’s at least a clue.

Also these are very famous coins so any time you are offered a bargain the chances are there’s a reason. Very rarely there will be an exception to this rule but….

[Aziz]

59 minutes ago, Deinomenid said:

Just to help this part as there’s really no question it’s a fake, a few others things might help. The surfaces are worrying, the dolphins behind the head are more like worms and they should not have lost their lower-lying fins from wear (so an issue with casting), the general appearance of the face is “off” (eyes and lips etc) though that’s hard to know if you haven’t seen many. Also check the weight and look at the edges. They might be “fine” but it’s at least a clue.

Also these are very famous coins so any time you are offered a bargain the chances are there’s a reason. Very rarely there will be an exception to this rule but….

Thank you so much for your insight, I will certainly look for the details you mentioned in any other coin i stumbles upon currently i will buy from more auction houses and dealers 

[Aziz]

I'm wondering if there any topic regarding trusted dealers that i can safely buy from, i'm also looking for some of the auctions in January it might be a chance to hit something good 

[Deinomenid]

There are lots of suggestions elsewhere on trust etc on this forum - a quick suggestion is the big 2 "supermarkets" for  coins  MA Coins and V Coins offer guarantees-  but - and not to make any assumptions - even a very poor quality decadrachm of the type you are looking for is going to be 20-25k, good ones 100k and great ones way more.

[Aziz]

6 minutes ago, Deinomenid said:

There are lots of suggestions elsewhere on trust etc on this forum - a quick suggestion is the big 2 "supermarkets" for  coins  MA Coins and V Coins offer guarantees-  but - and not to make any assumptions - even a very poor quality decadrachm of the type you are looking for is going to be 20-25k, good ones 100k and great ones way more.

Yes indeed prices is high and to many dies some of the second democracy syracuse coinage can start with 2 or 3 K with fine condition on some auction so i will try to snatch one i just love the artistic style of this coin and i absolutely will stay away as i can’t afford something signed by kimon for example or any mint unsigned example 

[Taras69]

Question is if you need a Dekadrachm or just like the style and buy a nice Tetradrachm instead. In any case and depending on your budget you might wanna save some to buy a nice example, which should cost quite a bit (you can also look for a Punic Tetradrachm in the same style, they are often less expensive than the ones from Syracuse). I think you are already aware of the market and the different bidding websites so good hunting and good luck! 

[robinjojo]

A nice Syracusan tetradrachm would be much more affordable compared to a decadrachm.  Still, a coin of that type is still costly.  Everything is relative.  

You might consider an tetradrachm of the Deinomenid Tyranny, 480-475 BC.  They seem to be running from around $800 for a low mid-grade example to $1,500 and more for a nice mid-grade or better example.  Prices do vary based on factors of strike, flan quality, style and rarity.  Also, when looking at auction prices, always factor in the buyer's fee and any currency rates that may apply.

Or a tetradrachm of the Second Democracy, 466-405 BC.  The Second Democracy tetradrachms of Syracuse vary greatly in quality and desirability driven in large part to the quality of the die engraving, but even more importantly to the wretched strikes, worn dies, very irregular flans.  Exceptionally nice examples can run up to $5,000 or more.  The specimen below cost me $700 at a CNG auction in June 2022.  Factoring in 20% for the buyer's fee and the total becomes $840.   

 

The tyranny of Agathocles (317 - 289 BC) produced some beautiful tetradrachms,  patterned generally along the lines of the decadrachms of the late 5th and early 4th centuries BC.  This coin was purchased from Harlan J Berk back in the early 1990s.  I don't have the price information, but as I recall a small hoard of these coins hit the market, so prices were "reasonable" for a brief time, around $500 to $700.  Nowadays these coins in very nice grade seem to be selling for around $5,000 and higher.

So whatever you decide, remember that there are lots of ancient coins available at any given time, so there's no need to rush into an acquisition.  Look around and do some homework.  Also, you might consider looking at Syracusan bronze coins.  They too often have great artistry and historical significance, are generally more available and generally a lower cost.

 

Edited December 9, 2024 by robinjojo

[El Cazador]

31 minutes ago, robinjojo said:

A nice Syracusan tetradrachm would be much more affordable compared to a decadrachm.  Still, a coin of that type is still costly.  Everything is relative.  

You might consider an tetradrachm of the Deinomenid Tyranny, 480-475 BC.  They seem to be running from around $800 for a low mid-grade example to $1,500 and more for a nice mid-grade or better example.  Prices do vary based on factors of strike, flan quality, style and rarity.  Also, when looking at auction prices, always factor in the buyer's fee and any currency rates that may apply.

Or a tetradrachm of the Second Democracy, 466-405 BC.  The Second Democracy tetradrachms of Syracuse vary greatly in quality and desirability driven in large part to the quality of the die engraving, but even more importantly to the wretched strikes, worn dies, very irregular flans.  Exceptionally nice examples can run up to $5,000 or more.  The specimen below cost me $700 at a CNG auction in June 2022.  Factoring in 20% for the buyer's fee and the total becomes $840.   

 

The tyranny of Agathocles (317 - 289 BC) produced some beautiful tetradrachms,  patterned generally along the lines of the decadrachms of the late 5th and early 4th centuries BC.  This coin was purchased from Harlan J Berk back in the early 1990s.  I don't have the price information, but as I recall a small hoard of these coins hit the market, so prices were "reasonable" for a brief time, around $500 to $700.  Nowadays these coins in very nice grade seem to be selling for around $5,000 and higher.

So whatever you decide, remember that there are lots of ancient coins available at any given time, so there's no need to rush into an acquisition.  Look around and do some homework.  Also, you might consider looking at Syracusan bronze coins.  They too often have great artistry and historical significance, are generally more available and generally a lower cost.

 

Wonderful coins. @robinjojoif you decide to sell 1 and 3 please llet me know!

[Aziz]

Great coins @robinjojo and thank you for your informations . 

I have been looking for many options but i will wait for the CNG upcoming auction there a really nice tetradrachms that’s i really felt in love with and appreciate the artistic style of it , i just got my bidding approval as well and hopefully 🤞🏻 i can get it for my budget limit 

[Aziz]

On 12/8/2024 at 9:33 PM, shanxi said:

Looks like a cast fake 

 

For comparison:

a similar real example:

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=672924

Thank you for sharing the link this is a magnificent example first time seeing an swastika on Syracusan tetradrachm , do you remember how much this example sold for?

[shanxi]

1 minute ago, Aziz said:

do you remember how much this example sold for?

No, I can't help you with that, but it certainly wasn't cheap. It's Panormus, by the way, but they are very similar. 

[Aziz]

9 minutes ago, shanxi said:

No, I can't help you with that, but it certainly wasn't cheap. It's Panormus, by the way, but they are very similar. 

Yes thank you for the correction i think i have get a book learning more in depth

[Taras69]

The NAC Panormus from the link brought 37k hammer, the recently ish sold examples from Morton & Eden I think hammered at about 40k GBP; the one sold by Sincona ca. 50k CHF.

This might be one of the top examples of this type: https://www.sixbid.com/de/archive/numismatica-ars-classica-zurich/731/-/726528/greek-coins

[Aziz]

14 hours ago, Taras69 said:

The NAC Panormus from the link brought 37k hammer, the recently ish sold examples from Morton & Eden I think hammered at about 40k GBP; the one sold by Sincona ca. 50k CHF.

This might be one of the top examples of this type: https://www.sixbid.com/de/archive/numismatica-ars-classica-zurich/731/-/726528/greek-coins

Thank you for the information, it certainly went very high but it’s extraordinary coin indeed 

[Aziz]

Just quick question guys i have been approved to bid with a maximum bid of 5K at CNG , i asked for raising my bidding ceiling but they required a numismatic references ! any idea what exactly is numismatic references ? are they talking of a material reference or individual reference? 

[Alegandron]

Different pics of my coin...

Syracuse
Gelon 485-478 BCE

24 mm x 16.77 grams 485-478

Ref:  Sear Greek -914

Biriga of Horses -

Arethusa wearinghairnet dolphins around

ex. Reeve Collection

Ex Nathan Miller

Edited December 12, 2024 by Alegandron

[Taras69]

They want you to name any auction houses or dealers you‘ve dealt with in the past that can recommend you.

In case you don’t have that there’s more options that could then be discussed with you like sending them money upfront to a depot etc.

[Aziz]

1 hour ago, Taras69 said:

They want you to name any auction houses or dealers you‘ve dealt with in the past that can recommend you.

In case you don’t have that there’s more options that could then be discussed with you like sending them money upfront to a depot etc.

Great thank you i bought some stuff from  V coins in the past i will check who was the dealer name and address 

Edited December 12, 2024 by Aziz

[Aziz]

1 hour ago, Alegandron said:

Different pics of my coin...

Syracuse
Gelon 485-478 BCE

24 mm x 16.77 grams 485-478

Ref:  Sear Greek -914

Biriga of Horses -

Arethusa wearinghairnet dolphins around

ex. Reeve Collection

Ex Nathan Miller