Domitian Caesar Dupondius, Second Known Specimen

[David Atherton]

The title says it all. This one flew under the radar on eBay last month ... luckily for me!

 

Domitian as Caesar [Titus]
Æ Dupondius, 14.18g
Rome mint, 80-81 AD
Obv: CAES DIVI AVG VESP F DOMITIANVS COS VII; Head of Domitian, laureate, bearded, r.
Rev: CERES AVGVST; S C in field; Ceres stg. l., with corn ears and torch
RIC 307 (R3). BMC -. BNC -.
Ex Taters Relics, eBay, 11 November 2024.

The dupondii struck for Domitian Caesar under Vespasian and Titus have portraits that lack the radiate crown normally associated with that denomination. At times it can be a bit confusing determining if a coin is a dupondius or an As. The new RIC authors firmly assume all the bronze Ceres types struck for Domitian Caesar under Vespasian and Titus are dupondii and are catalogued as such. This Ceres dupondius from Domitian Caesar's Group 2 bronze issue of 80-81 under Titus is the second known example of this extremely rare variety. RIC cites one specimen known to the authors in the Rome collection.

In hand.

 

Thanks for looking!

[Roman Collector]

I love the feeling of finding an unrecognized rarity. 

[CPK]

Awesome find David!

[Ancient Coin Hunter]

That's really cool, 😎 congratulations 

[Marsyas Mike]

Nice find, @David Atherton.  Finding unrecognized rarities is a lot of fun.  Along the same lines, I recently got a somewhat scarce Flavian mis-described on eBay as this:  

"Vespasian sestertius S C, Mars advancing with spear & trophy, Rome 72-73AD"

Here it is, with my attribution (and David Atherton notes!) - not Vespasian, but Titus ("T"), and from the mysterious mint in the Balkans to boot:  

Titus  Æ Sestertius (80-81 A.D.) Unknown Balkan Mint IMP T CAES DIVI VESP F AVG P M TR P P P COS VIII, laureate head right / S-C, Mars wearing cloak, advancing right, holding spear and trophy RIC II Part 1 (2nd ed.) Titus 499; (old RIC II 182); RPC II 502; BMCRE 310; Cahn 2. (23.79 grams / 36 x 34 mm) eBay Nov. 2024 (UK)

Die-Match Obverse: 

Romae Aeternae Numismatics VCoins listing (dead link) same coin sold on eBay: romae_aeternae_numismatics (11883) Titus AE Sestertius "Mars Walking, Holding Trophy & Spear" RIC 499 eBay Item No.:185778432767 Ended: Oct 22, 2024  US $330.00

"An unknown Eastern mint struck a small series of bronze coins for both Titus and Domitian. The style (heavily seriffed letters, large portraits, and massive reverse figures).... all suggest a mint other than Rome. Attributing exactly where these coins were struck has historically been a moving target - Mattingly in BMCRE thought Lugdunum, H.A. Cahn believed somewhere in Bithynia. More recent scholarship has...Thrace as a possible location..." David. Atherton Numis Forums..

[panzerman]

Congratulations!!!!!

 

Always a blast to acquire such a RARE coin😉

John

[David Atherton]

15 hours ago, Marsyas Mike said:

Nice find, @David Atherton.  Finding unrecognized rarities is a lot of fun.  Along the same lines, I recently got a somewhat scarce Flavian mis-described on eBay as this:  

"Vespasian sestertius S C, Mars advancing with spear & trophy, Rome 72-73AD"

Here it is, with my attribution (and David Atherton notes!) - not Vespasian, but Titus ("T"), and from the mysterious mint in the Balkans to boot:  

Titus  Æ Sestertius (80-81 A.D.) Unknown Balkan Mint IMP T CAES DIVI VESP F AVG P M TR P P P COS VIII, laureate head right / S-C, Mars wearing cloak, advancing right, holding spear and trophy RIC II Part 1 (2nd ed.) Titus 499; (old RIC II 182); RPC II 502; BMCRE 310; Cahn 2. (23.79 grams / 36 x 34 mm) eBay Nov. 2024 (UK)

Die-Match Obverse: 

Romae Aeternae Numismatics VCoins listing (dead link) same coin sold on eBay: romae_aeternae_numismatics (11883) Titus AE Sestertius "Mars Walking, Holding Trophy & Spear" RIC 499 eBay Item No.:185778432767 Ended: Oct 22, 2024  US $330.00

"An unknown Eastern mint struck a small series of bronze coins for both Titus and Domitian. The style (heavily seriffed letters, large portraits, and massive reverse figures).... all suggest a mint other than Rome. Attributing exactly where these coins were struck has historically been a moving target - Mattingly in BMCRE thought Lugdunum, H.A. Cahn believed somewhere in Bithynia. More recent scholarship has...Thrace as a possible location..." David. Atherton Numis Forums..

Recently, even NGC encapsulated a Thracian Titus sestertius as Vespasian!

[Mucius Scaevola]

33 minutes ago, David Atherton said:

Recently, even NGC encapsulated a Thracian Titus sestertius as Vespasian!

But isn't it quite hard to make a mistake there? T in front of Caes means Titus?

[CPK]

3 hours ago, Mucius Scaevola said:

But isn't it quite hard to make a mistake there? T in front of Caes means Titus?

That, and even if the T is obscured or off-flan, the portrait style is always a dead giveaway.

[David Atherton]

3 hours ago, Mucius Scaevola said:

But isn't it quite hard to make a mistake there? T in front of Caes means Titus?

Yes, it's a head scratcher.

[Mucius Scaevola]

1 hour ago, CPK said:

That, and even if the T is obscured or off-flan, the portrait style is always a dead giveaway.

It depends on the type. He sometimes really looks like his dad.

[Marsyas Mike]

On 12/5/2024 at 4:03 AM, Mucius Scaevola said:

But isn't it quite hard to make a mistake there? T in front of Caes means Titus?

 

On 12/5/2024 at 8:30 AM, Mucius Scaevola said:

It depends on the type. He sometimes really looks like his dad.

Sometimes even the experts make mistakes when it comes to Vespasian/Titus.  Here is an ANACS slab I picked up on eBay a while back - a Vespasian As, so says the slab:

 

They not only missed the T for Titus, they also missed the radiate crown, making this a dupondius, not an as - the T is half-gone, but the letter between IMP and CAES.. has to be a T, so it's Titus:

Here is my attempt at attribution:

Titus Æ Dupondius (c. 79 or 80-81 A.D.) Rome Mint  IMP T CAES VESP AVG P M TR P CO[S VIII], radiate head right / [CERES AVGVST] S C, Ceres standing left, holding corn-ears and torch RIC 67 or 189 (see notes). (Slabbed ? grams / 26 mm) eBay Feb. 2022    $30.00 BIN FS

Attribution Note:  ANACS slab No. 7206889 erroneously described as Vespasian as.  Obverse legend obscure at end, the two possibilities for this type are: 

RIC 67:  COS VII (79 A.D.)

RIC 189:  COS VIII

 

 

 

[Alegandron]

Very cool and congrats @David Atherton !

[David Atherton]

12 hours ago, Marsyas Mike said:

 

Sometimes even the experts make mistakes when it comes to Vespasian/Titus.  Here is an ANACS slab I picked up on eBay a while back - a Vespasian As, so says the slab:

 

They not only missed the T for Titus, they also missed the radiate crown, making this a dupondius, not an as - the T is half-gone, but the letter between IMP and CAES.. has to be a T, so it's Titus:

Here is my attempt at attribution:

Titus Æ Dupondius (c. 79 or 80-81 A.D.) Rome Mint  IMP T CAES VESP AVG P M TR P CO[S VIII], radiate head right / [CERES AVGVST] S C, Ceres standing left, holding corn-ears and torch RIC 67 or 189 (see notes). (Slabbed ? grams / 26 mm) eBay Feb. 2022    $30.00 BIN FS

Attribution Note:  ANACS slab No. 7206889 erroneously described as Vespasian as.  Obverse legend obscure at end, the two possibilities for this type are: 

RIC 67:  COS VII (79 A.D.)

RIC 189:  COS VIII

 

 

 

ANACS are the worst when it comes to attributing Flavians (and I would assume with other eras as well). Rarely do I see them get it right!

On the otherhand, NGC with Vagi and Murphy at the helm rarely make such amateur mistakes. One would assume the NGC error I cited above happened before they came on board.