Sceptre or Torch, what do you think ?

[shanxi]

A new Faustina II

According to CRE (The Coinage of Roman Empesses) there are two very similar types with CONSECRATIO / Pietas standing. CRE 203, Pietas holding sceptre, and CRE 204, Pietas holding long torch. The new coin is CRE 203 with sceptre (a die match with the CRE plate coin). For comparison, I add an example of CRE 204 with long torch.

The truth is that I am not completely convinced that these are really two variants. The torch of CRE 204 (see below) is very clear, but is the sceptre really a sceptre or just a vague torch? Since my coin is a die match to the plate coin of CRE 203  I list the coin as CRE 203.

RIC doesn't distinguish between the types, and writes sceptre. Most sellers follow this attribution.

There are some exeptions, e.g. CNG 

torch (different obverse):  https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1325218 or

sceptre: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=270361

 

What do you think ??

Faustina II
AR-Denar, Rome mint, posthumous AD 176 - 181
Obv.: DIVA FAVSTINA PIA, draped bust right
Rev.: CONSECRATIO, Pietas standing right, sacrificing on altar, and holding scepter
Ag, 3.23g, 17.5mm
Ref.: RIC III 741 [S], CRE 203 [R2]

a die match with the CRE 203 plate coin

 

For comparison CRE 204 with long torch

Faustina II
AR-Denar, Rome mint, posthumous AD 176 - 181
Obv.: DIVA FAVSTINA PIA, draped bust right
Rev.: CONSECRATIO, Pietas standing right, sacrificing on altar, and holding torch
Ag, 3.38g, 18.1mm
Ref.: RIC III 741 [S], CRE 204 [R]

 

I moved this topic from "post you latest coin" to this new topic.

Edited November 30, 2024 by shanxi

[Roman Collector]

19 minutes ago, shanxi said:

A new Faustina II

According to CRE (The Coinage of Roman Empesses) there are two very similar types with CONSECRATIO / Pietas standing. CRE 203, Pietas holding sceptre, and CRE 204, Pietas holding long torch. The new coin is CRE 203 with sceptre (a die match with the CRE plate coin). For comparison, I add an example of CRE 204 with long torch.

The truth is that I am not completely convinced that these are really two variants. The torch of CRE 204 (see below) is very clear, but is the sceptre really a sceptre or just a vague torch? Since my coin is a die match to the plate coin of CRE 203  I list the coin as CRE 203.

RIC doesn't distinguish between the types, and writes sceptre. Most sellers follow this attribution.

There are some exeptions, e.g. CNG 

torch (different obverse):  https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1325218 or

sceptre: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=270361

 

What do you think ??

Faustina II
AR-Denar, Rome mint, posthumous AD 176 - 181
Obv.: DIVA FAVSTINA PIA, draped bust right
Rev.: CONSECRATIO, Pietas standing right, sacrificing on altar, and holding scepter
Ag, 3.23g, 17.5mm
Ref.: RIC III 741 [S], CRE 203 [R2]

a die match with the CRE 203 plate coin

 

For comparison CRE 204 with long torch

Faustina II
AR-Denar, Rome mint, posthumous AD 176 - 181
Obv.: DIVA FAVSTINA PIA, draped bust right
Rev.: CONSECRATIO, Pietas standing right, sacrificing on altar, and holding scepter
Ag, 3.38g, 18.1mm
Ref.: RIC III 741 [S], CRE 204 [R]

 

I moved this topic from my "post you latest coin" to a new topic.

Funny! I just wrote a comment about it there!! I'll cut and paste it here, too. This is what I wrote:
 

Lovely specimen, @shanxi, though I'm not convinced the "scepter" is anything but a skinny rendition of a long torch. The posthumous issues for Faustina were often created with shoddy workmanship, with artistry of less-than-fine style and struck with worn dies. Here's a humdrum specimen in my collection.

Faustina II, 147-175 CE.
Roman AR denarius, 2.75 gm 19.1 mm, 11 h.
Rome, 176-180 CE.
Obv: DIVA FAVSTINA PIA, bare-headed and draped bust, right.
Rev: CONSECRATIO, Ceres-Pietas, veiled, draped, standing left, sacrificing out of patera in right hand over altar left and holding long lighted torch, vertical, in left.
Refs: RIC 741; BMCRE 711; RSC 66c; RCV 5214; CRE 204.

 

[shanxi]

 

6 minutes ago, Roman Collector said:

though I'm not convinced the "scepter" is anything but a skinny rendition of a long torch

Maybe we need to wait for a an example from perfectly freah dies and without wear. 

 

I just saw that in the example from the Curtis Clay collection,  it is mentioned by Curtis Clay? that "Long torch and long scepter are hard to distinguish in this type; cf. BMC pl. 67.13 ("scepter") and pl. 67.20 ("torch")." 

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=13678872

[Roman Collector]

5 minutes ago, shanxi said:

Maybe we need to wait for an example from perfectly fresh dies and without wear. 

It's too bad that most of these posthumous issues looked haggard the day they left the mint. That ex-Curtis Clay coin in the HJB listing you cite is now in my collection!

Faustina II, 147-175 CE.
Roman AR denarius, 3.06 gm 18.1 mm, 1 h.
Rome, 175 CE.
Obv: DIVAE FAVSTIN AVG MATR CASTROR, veiled and draped bust, right.
Rev: CONSECRATIO, Ceres-Pietas, veiled, draped, standing left, sacrificing out of patera in right hand over altar left and holding long lighted torch, vertical, in left.
Refs: RIC 742 corr.; BMCRE 700 corr.; RSC 66a; RCV --; CRE 205; MIR 47-4/19.

Edited November 30, 2024 by Roman Collector

[shanxi]

3 minutes ago, Roman Collector said:

That ex-Curtis Clay coin in the HJB listing you cite is now in my collection!

You were lucky that I saw it too late 😄