Lot of ancient coins from recent sales ending up in ruzzia

[I_v_a_n]

2 hours ago, Restitutor said:

While we all here can engage in discussion on whether auction houses should be penalized for still selling to Russia by not providing them our business, we should do so within a very limited scope so that this thread does not spiral into political debates, which would ultimately lead to a thread lock. 

Thank you, @Restitutor

My aim with this topic not to produce conflicts, but to to bring auction companies to decision to follow Künker and Leu practice.

So, I'll trying not to bring it to be locked.

[Hrefn]

36 minutes ago, I_v_a_n said:

One from realistic instruments to stop their agression is to bring roubles (their currency) to zero value. Mechanismus - not to let to buy them any commodities, even LRB.

I do understand. The coin companies in the West are being paid in dollars, euros, and Swiss francs.  Any Russian holding roubles has to buy hard currency to make these purchases.  In a small way, this drives the price of the rouble down.  

Preventing the Russians from selling commodities for hard currency is the way to hurt the Russian economy.  The preeminent commodity in this trade is oil and natural gas, but the principle applies to Faberge eggs and coins as well.  

If we could convince the Russians to expend all their foreign currency reserves purchasing Late Roman bronzes, do you think that would strengthen their economic and military position, or weaken it?  

 

[kirispupis]

This is a tough subject for me because I can see both sides.

On the one hand, there is no excuse for what Putin has done to Ukraine. It's an absolute crime and he and the oligarchs who support him need to be punished.

On the other hand, there are millions of other people in Russia who bear no blame in this. My wife speaks Russian (though is not Russian herself) and many of our friends are from the former Soviet Union - including many Russians and Ukrainians. She is well-known in the Russian community and sponsors Russian business meetings where Ukrainians and Russians regularly mix and get along absolutely fine.

Recently, she had a sad conversation with one of her school friends who still lives in Russia. Her son died in Ukraine. Certainly, she didn't want her son to go there, nor did he want to. Are they bad people?

There are also many Russians who still travel back and forth between the US and Russia because they have family there. Because exchanging between rubles and dollars is challenging, an entire black market has appeared where people coming from Russia bring rubles into the US. A Russian then pays dollars for those rubles and flies to Russia, where he then uses those rubles for local expenses and to help his/her family. The thing is, there's nothing your average Russian can do about Putin, and so they just try to survive. These Russians aren't doing this to destroy Ukraine. They're doing it to see family and friends and otherwise get by in life.

On another note, as I've stated elsewhere I'm currently selling my stamp collection. Somehow as a kid I obtained twenty stamps from North Korea. My wife was fascinated by them and we were anxious to learn how much they are worth. The entire lot goes for about $5. They're actually quite common world-wide but I learned that if I list them on EBay or some other service as "North Korean Stamps", I can receive a hefty fine and be placed on no-fly lists. For selling a few stamps! Really! So, they'll be sitting in my basement for a while, though my wife wants me to just throw them away.

So, can I really fault a Russian for finding that the same coins I collect are neat and wanting to buy some? What if that Russian happens to be wealthier than I and decides to buy a coin that's beyond my own means?

Somewhere, of course, there exists a line, but just remember that behind it are millions of people who are just like you and I.

[Kaleun96]

Interesting topic, I hadn't thought about whether auction houses were following in the footsteps of many companies (e.g. the one I work at) and exiting the Russian market/halting business there. Though I did also kind of just assume it was very difficult for businesses to send anything to Russia in the first place so would've guessed that auction houses wouldn't bother dealing with customers from Russia.

As to whether Russians should be banned from buying coins overseas, I don't think they should be banned from buying coins specifically, rather that they're banned from buying just about anything from overseas and coins would fall under that. I get what people mean when they say it's unfair to punish citizens for the decisions of their government but this is how most countries work today: you vote someone into power and that person may or may not do what they promised and may do things you didn't expect, like levying tariffs on goods coming from other countries. The whole populace suffers, whether or not they voted for the person, and whether or not they support the tariffs. If you don't like it, vote them out. Sure that's difficult with Putin's rigged elections but the Russian people got themselves into this mess, whether through indifference or active support, so they need to be the ones to get themselves out of it. 

The danger is that isolating Russia further could make it less stable and democratic over time but they're showing no signs of becoming more democratic and punishing the populace may reduce Putin's support so I'd rather they are cut-off from the international market than to let them eat their cake and have it too. Otherwise, where's the incentive for the average Russian to stop being indifferent and vote against Putin?

[CPK]

27 minutes ago, seth77 said:

One does not need to 'idolize' a side to acknowledge that the other is pure evil. The realization that the russian aggressor is in fact evil is a contextualization of the facts on the ground, from both intent and action undertaken. If the russians had their way in 2022, they had kill lists and instructions for mass graves -- on the kill lists being whole families of Ukrainian local leaders, politicians, teachers, priests, entrepreneurs/business owners and professionals. In places like Bucha or Irpin, where they stationed on their way to Kyiv, they engaged in full-fledged genocide, and not by mistake, but directly by russian orcs purposefully killing Ukrainian civilians where they found them. While no side is beyond criticism or 'perfect' (nobody is perfect), it is (or should be) clear that the side of the aggressor is evil by any measure and criteria. 

As for russians being chauvinistic and xenophobic in general, this opinion comes from countries in Eastern Europe that have unfortunately been neighbors to russia in all of its incarnations. And about genocidal, given their chance, yes, russians have been genocidal historically and are now. 

Nobody here is arguing that Putin's invasion wasn't wrong, or that evil things have not been done by the Russian government/military in the course of the war. My point is that one should be able to acknowledge the evil that was and is being done without painting every Russian citizen as an enthusiastic supporter of it. I would say the same thing about the German and Japanese populations during WWII. Making sweeping moral judgements about - or casting opprobrious slurs at - the Russian citizenry en masse is just as wrong as making sweeping moral judgements of any other people. Some support the war, others don't. Many are doubtless horrified by what their government has done: is it right to call them murderous, genocidal, chauvinistic, "orcs", who approve of mass graves and kill lists?

Again, I am not trying to draw a judicial equivalence between the two sides here; I am only objecting to this sort of unthinking, simplistic moral generalization, which, while understandable, is not only unhelpful in my view but also wrong.

And now, I think I will respectfully bow out, and leave this discussion for others.

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

And while pretty much no one would support the suffering of the civilian population during this conflict, this thread is overtly political, and only leads to emnity.  The thread really should be yanked.

[seth77]

20 minutes ago, CPK said:

I am only objecting to this sort of unthinking, simplistic moral generalization, which, while understandable, is not only unhelpful in my view but also wrong.

 

These are not slurs -- xenophobic, chauvinistic and genocidal. They are actual characteristics of the actions and attitudes employed by not just the russian regime, but large swathes of the population too. In fact there are many who use them for themselves as terms to brag about, and not just russians but serbians too. These are nations that feel disenfranchised by the loss of their perceived status as empires and when their governments act with murderous and genocidal intent, they revel in it. Putin was actually on a downward spiral before launching the full-blown invasion in Feb 2022 and the war with its full horrors has actually made him more popular among common russians. 

I am sorry that you feel we are being unthinking or simplistic in our understandable but unhelpful and wrong views regarding the russian orcs, but from here in Eastern Europe, neighboring Mordor, this is rather real. In fact a similar condescending attitude from Western powers towards Eastern Europe when everyone from the Baltic states to Romania and even Bulgaria was trying to raise awareness about the impeding russian aggression is what facilitated putin regime's crimes. And that was besides being unhelpful and wrong, also not understandable.

Edited November 23 by seth77

[John Conduitt]

22 minutes ago, seth77 said:

These are not slurs -- xenophobic, chauvinistic and genocidal. They are actual characteristics of the actions and attitudes employed by not just the russian regime, but large swathes of the population too. In fact there are many who use them for themselves as terms to brag about, and not just russians but serbians too. These are nations that feel disenfranchised by the loss of their perceived status as empires and when their governments act with murderous and genocidal intent, they revel in it. Putin was actually on a downward spiral before launching the full-blown invasion in Feb 2022 and the war with its full horrors has actually made him more popular among common russians. 

I am sorry that you feel we are being unthinking or simplistic in our understandable but unhelpful and wrong views regarding the russian orcs, but from here in Eastern Europe, neighboring Mordor, this is rather real. In fact a similar condescending attitude from Western powers towards Eastern Europe when everyone from the Baltic states to Romania and even Bulgaria was trying to raise awareness about the impeding russian aggression is what facilitated putin's regime crimes. And that was besides unhelpful and wrong, also not understandable.

If you paint all Russians as pro-Putin then you are rather backing up his claims, instead of seeing him as a despot. But it is not true, just as it wasn't in Stalin's time. The loudest voices in Russia - in fact, the only ones if you don't want to be locked up or poisoned - are xenophobic. The political mistakes you refer to were not in making the claim that not all Russians are genocidal but in believing that opening dialogue with Putin would soften his stance. That was wrong, but it is still the strategy with Xi Jinping. Trump is even proud of his dialogue with Kim Jong Un.

Edited November 23 by John Conduitt

[seth77]

Here is some wrong, unhelpful, simplistic and unthinking stat regarding putin's approval rating: Putin approval rating Russia 2024 | Statista

Check out the jump from Feb 2022 to Mar 2022. It's quite sobering.

[John Conduitt]

52 minutes ago, seth77 said:

Here is some wrong, unhelpful, simplistic and unthinking stat regarding putin's approval rating: Putin approval rating Russia 2024 | Statista

Check out the jump from Feb 2022 to Mar 2022. It's quite sobering.

I think if I was living in Russia I might be either ill-informed or paranoid enough to tell a pollster that Putin was doing a good job. I mean, I tell every politician that knocks on my door that I'll vote for them when I won't. Quite a lot of people voted for Trump but said something else to the pollsters.

[I_v_a_n]

2 hours ago, Hrefn said:

I do understand. The coin companies in the West are being paid in dollars, euros, and Swiss francs.  Any Russian holding roubles has to buy hard currency to make these purchases.  In a small way, this drives the price of the rouble down.  

Preventing the Russians from selling commodities for hard currency is the way to hurt the Russian economy.  The preeminent commodity in this trade is oil and natural gas, but the principle applies to Faberge eggs and coins as well.  

If we could convince the Russians to expend all their foreign currency reserves purchasing Late Roman bronzes, do you think that would strengthen their economic and military position, or weaken it?  

 

You are absolutely right about their export (oil, gas and Faberge eggs too). But you also need to limit their import to create the conditions for inflation of internal currency: a lot of paper money not supported by commodities. They have a great dependence from everyday goods import.

They do not had a critical problems with currency exchange until the July or August of 2024 when they was banned from EUR and USD in Moscow burse. Only recently they was banned from Yuan'.

Now they developed a typical ruzzian dualismus mechanismus: on one hand they have an official restrictions for crypto currency payments, on the other hand now they massively use this possibility for abroad payments.

So, now there are less hard currencies in theirs import chains and less possibilities to control import sanctions. That is why they must be totally banned from any possibilities to import western goods.

[I_v_a_n]

To summarise all the sentiments about "Good Russians" I can tell that this is a great problem: while you are thinking how not to hurt "average", "indiffirent", "poor" or "good" Russians you are loosing the time for effective action. During this time average ruzzians without any sentiments totally killing Ukrainian civilians, warriors and prisoners of war, destroying Ukrainian cities till the ground. Eventually the right decisions will be made, but their effectiveness will be less and their cost will be measured in many lives.

The total, strong economic sanctions are the only one peaceful and effective method to accelerate truce and peace.

That is why I am here calling western auctions to join Kunker and Leu - this is an effort to reach peace they can to do.

[panzerman]

Well said seth77 and I_v_a_n 😎 I have been supporting you guys since invasion started! I have two car flags which I proudly show.

We have a lot of hardworking Ukrainians living here in Canada.

Ukraine (Galicia) was part of Austro-Hungarian Empire. In 1917 it became sovereign Nation.  It was annexed by force to USSR in 1922. Stalin in 1928 made Ukrainian farmers "Kulaks" enemies of the state/ seized their farms/ crops/ result 16M died from starvation/ resisters were shot by the OGPU secret police. In 1941 with German army group South encircled three Soviet Armies near Kiev. Stalin then nervous many Ukrainian men would join wehrmacht/ ordered Beria's NKVD thugs to shoot/ ask questions later. So Ukrainians know all to well the Russian Bear.

Here is Austro-Hungarian AV 4 Dukaten when she was part of Austro=Hungarian Empire.

[mcwyler]

A demagogic dictator like Putin gets where he is by stirring up hatred in the country, and for whom this does not work, terrorise them into submission.
Navalny's murder showed what happens to his enemies. So of course a poll conducted in those circumstances would show approval for the gangster, who controls the media and everything else.
I am convinced we should support Ukraine by any means possible, but I am not comfortable with demonising all Russians as some have seemed to do.
After all, since Brexit some in Europe would characterise the British as chauvinistic or xenophobic. Τhankfully I know that not to be the case - generally. I am not drawing a direct parallel between leaving a trading bloc and invading a country btw, I just don't believe the average citizen is responsible for the action of a government.
 

[I_v_a_n]

On 11/24/2024 at 1:29 AM, panzerman said:

Ukraine (Galicia) was part of Austro-Hungarian Empire. In 1917 it became sovereign Nation.  It was annexed by force to USSR in 1922. Stalin in 1928 made Ukrainian farmers "Kulaks" enemies of the state/ seized their farms/ crops/ result 16M died from starvation/ resisters were shot by the OGPU secret police. In 1941 with German army group South encircled three Soviet Armies near Kiev. Stalin then nervous many Ukrainian men would join wehrmacht/ ordered Beria's NKVD thugs to shoot/ ask questions later. So Ukrainians know all to well the Russian Bear.

Thank you @panzerman for your support and understanding of the Ukrainian tragedy in present day and in the history.

[Väinämöinen]

On 11/22/2024 at 10:51 PM, JAZ Numismatics said:

Should coin collectors be penalized for the misconduct of politicians?

They're citizens of a country with which we're indirectly in a war.

Seems perfectly reasonable to limit business with them.

  

On 11/23/2024 at 1:53 PM, JAZ Numismatics said:

My point is, even if you disagreed with the meddling, you'd have no power to change anything on a global scale. It's out of your control. Does anyone really think that depriving the Russian citizenry of a few commodities is going to compel them to rise up and overthrow Putin?

Russian isolation and sanctions should pierce through the whole society on all levels. It's a matter of small streams. If they start an unjust war, unfortunately the people of the nation should feel that they're at war. The Russian leadership depends on the general submissive and favourable sentiment to a degree.

Being soft on Russia has never worked at any point in history, perhaps with the exception of a brief period after the collapse of the USSR. Whether it was the Russian Empire, the USSR, or today's Russia, the reigning czar and his cronies have always taken and made use of all the leeway given to them.

Edited November 26 by Väinämöinen

[Ursus]

The real problem is not average Russians buying LRBs. The problem is that wealthy Russians, who are mostly part of Putin's apparatus, buy expensive collectables in order to diversify their portfolio. This allows them to safeguard against a collapse of the rouble and/or transfer assets internationally despite the sanctions. I know that this has happened and probably is still happening with, for example, art (see here) and luxury watches (see here). I would bet you that it is happening with coins, too.

Therefore, I find it highly laudable if auction houses stop selling to Russians. 

[panzerman]

On 11/25/2024 at 9:42 AM, I_v_a_n said:

Thank you @panzerman for your support and understanding of the Ukrainian tragedy in present day and in the history.

Thank you I_V_A_N ! I support You and all brave Ukrainians. Sadly most people here and in the US do not know the truth/ esp. of the horrible crimes commited by the USSR from 1918-89. Putin willingly sought to work for the sinister KGB. Before 1953 this organization had its evil start after the 1918 Revolution. Its purpose to make the populace obedient thru terror/ thus the CHEKA was born. Animal Farm by Orwell a good read. Then as power went from Lenin/ Trostky to Stalin/ it was renamed the OGPU/ then under the Poison Dwarf "Ezhov" the NKVD or "murder Inc." in total 69 M were liquidated. So Mr. Putin was part of that apparatus. Too bad a nice man like Boris Yeltsin handed the reins of power to a thug like Putin.

[I_v_a_n]

13 hours ago, panzerman said:

Sadly most people here and in the US do not know the truth/ esp. of the horrible crimes commited by the USSR from 1918-89.

Yes, the truth is so extremely painful, that most of peoples does not want to know or hear about it.

Every time when their "special services" reach the highest power first of all they are destroying the greatest achievement of all humanity - humans rights.  And they do it in most infernal ways because they’ve found the massive fear as very effective instrument to control peoples.

On the other hand they are always paying a great premium for everyone abroad who are cooperating with them and using such a “business geniuses” as a weapon against all the West countries. Especially now.

Here I am trying to explain that now is a time to break all the connections to let economical sanctions to work properly. The sanctions can be much more effective if ruzzians would not find anyone for cooperation here in West. Because everyone here would understand their present day internal hostile state.

[panzerman]

BINGO!

100 percent right my friend. The Rouble is tanking/ esp. last 4 days. Also interest rates are very high. Now that President Trump wants to expand US oil/ gas production/ prices will plummet to $50 a barrel or more. This is good for Me (filling up car/ truck)/  and a disaster for the Russian economy/ war machine. The USSR crumbled for same reason in 89. Hopefully the "Federation" will do same in 2025. Those 300B frozen Russian assets should go to Ukraine to rebuild everything the Russian invaders destroyed.

[El Cazador]

On 11/23/2024 at 1:51 AM, JAZ Numismatics said:

Should coin collectors be penalized for the misconduct of politicians?

Absolute, they chose these politicians 

[El Cazador]

On 11/23/2024 at 4:42 PM, seth77 said:

Nobody attacked them. On the other hand they have attacked another country that they are trying to destroy and annex and they are threatening everyone else. Saying that Russians are "defending themselves" is very similar to saying "Nazis are just defending themselves" after they invaded Poland and Czechoslovakia. 

Absolutely agree

[JAZ Numismatics]

8 minutes ago, El Cazador said:

Absolute, they chose these politicians 

No, they didn't. In most democracies voting is only the illusion of choice. It's extremely rare that firmly entrenched bureaucracies get ousted by popular vote. 

Edited Thursday at 03:44 PM by JAZ Numismatics

[Mucius Scaevola]

Lot of black and white here and honestly - a lot of bs. My wife is Russian, works as a director for an investment fund that supports startups with founders that are positioning themselves against the government, can't therefore go back to Russia, her family doesn't have the possibility to leave and through her I met a lot of russian people that fled the country already before this part of the war started. You want to know why? Because they have friends or family in the Ukraine, or because they just hate the fact that their government started to threaten and attack their neighbor. Can you imagine how many people want to flee but don't have the funds to do this? How many disappeared because they posted or said something? Of course their are idiots, but saying that the majority likes Putin is just crazy. Don't tell me sth like "absolutely, they voted for them". Do you have any clue how these votes work? It's not like in your cozy hometown, where you get a kiss on your cheek, a warm welcome, maybe a beer and then vote in a cabin where nobody is looking at you and where you put your cross with your manicured fingers. It's quite easy to shout "Bad people", when you live in a safe country, where you don't have to fear being killed, because you said sth wrong.

And especially in poor regions, it's super easy to brainwash people. They have nothing, they basically belong to the government.

Just take this thread down, I start to lose respect for quite some collectors here.

[Bannerknight]

I quite agree with the last sentence of @Mucius Scaevola. Just take the thread down, I find it of little numismatic value. That would be my suggestion to the moderators. There are other forums more suitable for discussing current conflicts that does not involve a numismatic angle.