Lot of ancient coins from recent sales ending up in ruzzia

[I_v_a_n]

Until for today I've knew only the one company, who interrupted cooperation with ruzzians after theirs agression against Ukraine and makes official disclaimer on theirs web-site. This is a very respectful company Fritz Rudolf Künker GmbH & Co. KG.

During all the time from 2022 year there were a lot of topics on ruzzian numismatic forums with new purchases from all of the world and they fairly laughed and mocked everyone in EU/USA for how skillful they were at circumventing any sanctions, primarily due to the desire of the companies themselves to continue cooperation with them.

Among such a companies was CNG, Savoca, Naumann and many others.

But today I've found a good new: Leu Numismatik join the Künker's practice.

The aim of this my post to widening this practice as more, as it possible. I hope, all mentioned above companies would join this practice.

Please, share all your opinions on the subject.

[JAZ Numismatics]

Should coin collectors be penalized for the misconduct of politicians?

[John Conduitt]

It would seem stupid for any auction house to do it. The benefits are small and the cost could be their business.

Luxury items are a way for rich Russians to conceal or liquidate their wealth. The sanctions are intended to inconvenience oligarchs, not stop a collector buying an LRB. I don't know what coins were being 'flaunted' on the forums.

[panzerman]

Probably those "oligrachs" that are buying the better high grade coins. The average Russian has no money for hobbies/ they can't even afford butter/ bread/ staples. Inflation is at 24% the Rouble is tanking along with their economy. Trains are even sitting idle. Western sanctions are working, Putin boasted on opening day of invasion, "it will be over by lunchtime"

Its now 1003 days/ 725K KIA/ maimed/ materiel losses in Trillions.

 

[I_v_a_n]

11 hours ago, JAZ Numismatics said:

Should coin collectors be penalized for the misconduct of politicians?

Unfortunately, ruzzian collectors mostly support the war. There are no the "misconduct of politicians". Theirs politicians fully reflects the wishes of majority of the peoples, who wants to have all the advantages from America / EU (i.e. smartphones, digital technologies, good cars and yes, also the coins) on one hand, and from another hand they want you to die.

There are a minority of responsible and respectful Russians who are not naive and supporting the strongest sanctions because this is the way how the war can be ended with less blood.

So, my opinion, they must be blocked from USA / EU numismatic auctions too.  

[I_v_a_n]

11 hours ago, John Conduitt said:

It would seem stupid for any auction house to do it. The benefits are small and the cost could be their business.

I do not think so. There are no any problems for Künker for 2+ years, but for companies, who are strongly cooperating with ruzzians there are potential problems, because they are paying mostly in cash and smuggling coins into ruzzia.

So, Künker and Leu are wise, experienced and knowledgeable.

 

11 hours ago, John Conduitt said:

Luxury items are a way for rich Russians to conceal or liquidate their wealth. The sanctions are intended to inconvenience oligarchs, not stop a collector buying an LRB. I don't know what coins were being 'flaunted' on the forums.

Here we are speaking first of all about a middle range of coins: usual AR tetradrachms and denariuses, and higher to AV.

I think, the sanctions are intended to weaken ruzzian state via lowering theirs ability to finance the war; weaken theirs ability for weapon production; to create the elite and general society instability.

So, to create "general society instability" they must be blocked even from LRB. They must to feel the discomfort from theirs war.

Strong and real sanctions is the effective way to end the war with less blood.

[I_v_a_n]

10 hours ago, panzerman said:

The average Russian has no money for hobbies/ they can't even afford butter/ bread/ staples.

For you to know: they are thinking this is theirs advantage. They are thinking, that they are trained to survive in miserable conditions. It means, that if it would be the nuclear war, all we are will die, and they will win.

I was always thinking that if you are became the numismatist, than you are become more educated, intelligence and peaceful. Unfortunately it does not work with ruzzian numismatist community - most of them strongly support the war, despite they are much higher than average ruzzians by theirs education and finance ability.

[Limes]

I foresee this topic - although interesting - quickly spiraling down into a cesspit of 'opinions'. So I suggest @Restitutor puts a lock on it 🙂 

Edited November 23 by Limes

[JAZ Numismatics]

2 hours ago, I_v_a_n said:

Unfortunately, ruzzian collectors mostly support the war. There are no the "misconduct of politicians". Theirs politicians fully reflects the wishes of majority of the peoples, who wants to have all the advantages from America / EU (i.e. smartphones, digital technologies, good cars and yes, also the coins) on one hand, and from another hand they want you to die.

There are a minority of responsible and respectful Russians who are not naive and supporting the strongest sanctions because this is the way how the war can be ended with less blood.

So, my opinion, they must be blocked from USA / EU numismatic auctions too.  

I don't know anything about the general feelings of the Russian people toward the war. How do you know what they are thinking? Do you travel to Russia, or live there? 

I can tell you that counless millions of Americans are disguisted with our government's seemingly unending desire to meddle in international conflict, yet there's absolutely nothing we can do about it. The military-industrial complex is all-powerful and they do as they please. I suspect Russian oligarchy is no different. Hell, they starved their people and imprisoned them in gulags for the better part of a century. Do you honestly think Putin cares about his naysayers? He has them silenced.

There are always powerful forces in society that seek to subvert and destroy civilization. The battle against those forces is not won in a head-on conflict. War always breeds more war. It's won by individuals that insist on upholding everything that's good, right, and true in the everyday aspects of their lives: family, faith, friends, education, career, and even hobbies like coin collecting. The despot only wins if we lay aside the good things in our lives and give up in frustration because of things over which we have no control.

Edited November 23 by JAZ Numismatics

[seth77]

1 hour ago, Celator said:

As a American I believe the Russians have a right to defend themselves, should I be sanctioned as well?

Nobody attacked them. On the other hand they have attacked another country that they are trying to destroy and annex and they are threatening everyone else. Saying that Russians are "defending themselves" is very similar to saying "Nazis are just defending themselves" after they invaded Poland and Czechoslovakia. 

[seth77]

5 minutes ago, JAZ Numismatics said:

I don't know anything about the general feelings of the Russian people toward the war. How do you know what they are thinking? Do you travel to Russia, or live there? 

I can tell you that counless millions of Americans are disguisted with our government's seemingly unending desire to meddle in international conflict, yet there's absolutely nothing we can do about it. The military-industrial complex is all-powerful and they do as they please. I suspect Russian oligarchy is no different. Hell, they starved their people and imprisoned them in gulags for the better part of a century. Do you honestly think Putin cares about his naysayers? He has them silenced.

There are always powerful forces in society that seek to subvert and destroy civilization. The battle against those forces is not won in a head-on conflict. War always breeds more war. It's won by individuals that insist on upholding everything that's good, right, and true in the everyday aspects of their lives: family, faith, friends, education, career, and even hobbies like coin collecting. The despot only wins if we lay aside the good things in our lives and give up in frustration because of things over which we have no control.

I'm actually thankful for American "meddling" în Europe. Thanks to them, Eastern Europe is free from the Iron Curtain. The russian orcs are now trying to reverse that.

[JAZ Numismatics]

1 minute ago, seth77 said:

I'm actually thankful for American "meddling" în Europe. Thanks to them, Eastern Europe is free from the Iron Curtain. The russian orcs are now trying to reverse that.

My point is, even if you disagreed with the meddling, you'd have no power to change anything on a global scale. It's out of your control. Does anyone really think that depriving the Russian citizenry of a few commodities is going to compel them to rise up and overthrow Putin?

[Hrefn]

One could argue that continuing to.sell coins to Russians actually impedes the Russian war effort.  Hard currency is removed from the Russian economy in exchange for old bits of metal which lack any military value.  A better case could be made for not buying any coins from Russia, as that would transfer hard currency into the Russian economy, which could be used to support the war effort.  

After the 1917 Revolution, the Bolsheviks systematically sold artworks, Imperial treasures, Faberge eggs, jewelry, and other valuables in auctions in the West.  They exchanged luxury goods for hard cash to finance their political objectives.  A prohibition on the purchase of these goods (by Westerners) would have been disadvantageous to the new regime.  

Selling French perfume, Gucci purses, and other luxury goods like coins to the present day Russians might actually be in the interest of anyone who opposes the Russian military operation in Ukraine.  

Edited November 23 by Hrefn
Elaboration on the thought.

[seth77]

Just now, JAZ Numismatics said:

My point is, even if you disagreed with the meddling, you'd have no power to change anything on a global scale. It's out of your control. Does anyone really think that depriving the Russian citizenry of a few commodities is going to compel them to rise up and overthrow Putin?

I don't think they would 'rise' to do anything good. Russians are generally very chauvinistic and xenophobic and putin is the vessel through which these tendencies manifest themselves atm. Thing is there cannot be business as usual with what they are doing in Ukraine and their threats against everyone else. Sanctions and helping the Ukrainians defend themselves is the least that the civilized free world can do.

[JAZ Numismatics]

11 minutes ago, seth77 said:

I don't think they would 'rise' to do anything good. Russians are generally very chauvinistic and xenophobic and putin is the vessel through which these tendencies manifest themselves atm. Thing is there cannot be business as usual with what they are doing in Ukraine and their threats against everyone else. Sanctions and helping the Ukrainians defend themselves is the least that the civilized free world can do.

We'll have to agree to disagree. By some estimates, we've now poured 183 billion dollars into the conflict and what do we have to show for it? Absolutely nothing. But that discussion leaves the realm of coin collecting and moves into politics, so I won't pursue it any further.

[seth77]

Just now, JAZ Numismatics said:

We'll have to agree to disagree. By some estimates, we've now poured 183 billion dollars into the conflict and what do we have to show for it? Absolutely nothing. But that discussion leaves the realm of coin collecting and moves into politics, so I won't pursue it any further.

Probably w/o US and European help, now Ukraine would have been overrun and the people subjected to genocide like in Bucha or Irpin. I understand the frustration though, Europe should do more. Unfortunately, as a result of WW2, we have grown acutely dependent on the US for our own security. 

[panzerman]

5 hours ago, Celator said:

As a American I believe the Russians have a right to defend themselves, should I be sanctioned as well?

Have You not heard that Putin also claims Alaska as past of his, "Make Russia great again" dream.? Also its Ukraine that is defending her sovereign right to exist/ it was Russia that invaded Ukraine! Russia from the time period under Ivan the Terrible to present has thru aggressive Wars vs neighbours expanded the Duchy of Moscovy (size of France to what it was in 1989.) After the USSR crumbled the Occupied Warsaw Pact Countries got their freedom back. Also many of the so called SSR Republics gained independence. Then they stupidly elected Putin. Thru murder/ corruption/ greed his cabale raped the Motherland and he with his buddies became gaxillionaires.

Since 1945....

Stalin's Red Army seized Romania/ Bulgaria/ East Germany/ Czechoslovakia/ Poland/ Hungary/ Estonia/ Latvia/ Lithuania/ W part of Finland

1956 Hungary revolt

1968 Czech revolt

1979 invade Afghanistan

Today we have Iran/ North Korea/ China helping Putin in a new "Axis of Evil"

So again then I guess you will let Putin have Alaska?

[Restitutor]

While we all here can engage in discussion on whether auction houses should be penalized for still selling to Russia by not providing them our business, we should do so within a very limited scope so that this thread does not spiral into political debates, which would ultimately lead to a thread lock. 

I also want to make it unequivocally clear that any talk of Ukraine being anything other than the victim of an aggressive and barbarous neighbor will not be tolerated here, and any offending comments will be removed.

[Parthicus]

2 hours ago, Hrefn said:

One could argue that continuing to.sell coins to Russians actually impedes the Russian war effort.  Hard currency is removed from the Russian economy in exchange for old bits of metal which lack any military value.  A better case could be made for not buying any coins from Russia, as that would transfer hard currency into the Russian economy, which could be used to support the war effort.  

After the 1917 Revolution, the Bolsheviks systematically sold artworks, Imperial treasures, Faberge eggs, jewelry, and other valuables in auctions in the West.  They exchanged luxury goods for hard cash to finance their political objectives.  A prohibition on the purchase of these goods (by Westerners) would have been disadvantageous to the new regime.  

Selling French perfume, Gucci purses, and other luxury goods like coins to the present day Russians might actually be in the interest of anyone who opposes the Russian military operation in Ukraine.  

 That... actually makes a lot of sense to me.  And (unlike selling weapons to one side) even a pacifist would be hard-pressed to object.  After all, we're just selling goods to people who want them, and it's harmless luxury goods, not dangerous narcotics or other things that will harm the consumer.  Best war plan I've heard in a long time.

[I_v_a_n]

2 hours ago, JAZ Numismatics said:

How do you know what they are thinking? Do you travel to Russia, or live there? 

I am Ukrainian and was lived in Kyiv until February, 2022. Unfortunately, my personal tragedy is that I was among the peoples who believed that war is not possible because we are very close nations ("brothers" 😡 ), we are spoken the same language, had the same Church and etc. I've had an idealistic imagination that such a bloody war not possible in XXI-th century because humanity in general reached a high level of development which makes hot wars impossible. And I believed that ruzzian people would not let their politicians to start a war, the same way as we are, Ukrainians, do not let our powers to do things peoples doesn't want.

I was mistaken...

For you to know: ruzzians propaganda continiously saying to their peoples that they are defending themeselves against agression of "Collective West" and first of all - USA. Ukrainians are only the instrument of such insidious western agression.

Are you still willing to sell them coins?

[CPK]

4 hours ago, I_v_a_n said:

I was always thinking that if you are became the numismatist, than you are become more educated, intelligence and peaceful. Unfortunately it does not work with ruzzian numismatist community - most of them strongly support the war, despite they are much higher than average ruzzians by theirs education and finance ability.

It also doesn't work this way in any community. It is sadly naive to think that education and intelligence can be a sufficient antidote - or an antidote at all - to evil. Human nature doesn't change just because you become more educated or have more money - if anything, that only facilitates the preexisting inclination towards evil which exists in all humans, Ukranian as well as "ruzzian".

If I may, I'd also like to say this: I'm uncomfortable with the tendency I see here and elsewhere to completely idolize one side and demonize the other. It's a natural thing to do (speaking of human nature) and I think we all recognize that in this conflict, Russia was the unjustified aggressor - but I'd like to think we can acknowledge this without labeling all Russians (as implied above) as chauvinistic, genocidal, and murderous. I'd also like to think we can acknowledge that Ukraine was the victim in this conflict, without treating all of its citizens and actions as perfect, above reproach, and off-limits for criticism.

War is always ugly and horrible, and I want to see the suffering ended as soon as possible, for the Russians as well as the Ukrainians.

With that said, I agree with @Limes, I don't see this topic going anywhere productive.

[I_v_a_n]

3 hours ago, Hrefn said:

 Hard currency is removed from the Russian economy in exchange for old bits of metal which lack any military value.

One from realistic instruments to stop their agression is to bring roubles (their currency) to zero value. Mechanismus - not to let to buy them any commodities, even LRB.

[JAZ Numismatics]

22 minutes ago, I_v_a_n said:

I am Ukrainian and was lived in Kyiv until February, 2022. Unfortunately, my personal tragedy is that I was among the peoples who believed that war is not possible because we are very close nations ("brothers" 😡 ), we are spoken the same language, had the same Church and etc. I've had an idealistic imagination that such a bloody war not possible in XXI-th century because humanity in general reached a high level of development which makes hot wars impossible. And I believed that ruzzian people would not let their politicians to start a war, the same way as we are, Ukrainians, do not let our powers to do things peoples doesn't want.

I was mistaken...

For you to know: ruzzians propaganda continiously saying to their peoples that they are defending themeselves against agression of "Collective West" and first of all - USA. Ukrainians are only the instrument of such insidious western agression.

Are you still willing to sell them coins?

First of all, I strongly support the autonomy and cultural integrity of all nations, including Ukraine of course. What I don't agree with is the collective punishment of individuals who may or may not be guilty of any crimes. Obviously some Russians support the invasion, some don't. Do we punish them all for the actions of some? I say NO. That's a totalitarian tactic that never ends well for anybody. That's stooping to the level of your enemies.

What's the option? Vetting all the collectors and deciding which ones hold the correct political opinions, and only selling to them? That sounds equally Orwellian.

Edited November 23 by JAZ Numismatics

[John Conduitt]

I have lived in Russia, in happier times. I rarely met anyone who would support Putin as he is now.

There were people who harked back to the Soviet era and would like his MRGA message. They got left behind during the westernisation of the economy and wanted the old times back, like coal miners and car manufacturers in the US. There were plenty of xenophobes, although that was mostly racism. Black people are not a common sight in Russia and you get the sort of racism seen in Western Europe in the 1960s. I'm not black and was only verbally abused once for being a foreigner. Particular hatred was reserved for Chechens, who the government called terrorists. There wasn't a reason for Russians to disagree with that narrative. Even so, Russians embraced Caucasian and Turkic cultures, buying their clothes and eating their food, although with an air of superiority.

It was that war that gave Putin his power. But while Russians may have agreed with the need to bring Chechnya under control (to stop terrorism, the same narrative as 911), there wasn't a desire for war. The war was Putin's way of protracting a situation that made him look strong after Yeltsin had gone through several potential heirs who were anything but. In fact, most Russians were against the war, if not the sentiment behind it. Young people were very fearful of being called up and their parents didn't want them to be. They didn't fear Chechen terrorism. Most humour was not about Chechens but about how you could escape the draft.

With Ukraine, there isn't even a racial motivation. If there's xenophobia, it's third hand, focused on the people who have apparently turned Urkainians against their kinsfolk. I don't believe many Russians go along with that, at least not enough to have this war. Neither do they particularly care if Ukraine is part of Russia. But the break up of the Soviet Union could be cast as humiliation, even if most Russians fighting in Ukraine don't even remember it. What I think we hear is bravado from people who do not want their country to be the loser. They would not have started the war, but they don't want Russia to lose, since their nationality is part of their sense of self. It's part of their self worth. It's the same for people all over the world. Americans salute a flag every morning and proclaim theirs the greatest country in the world. Is that xenophobic? Some people do very stupid things to show support for their sports team. That defies logic, but they do it.

So, I don't think Russians are particularly different to anyone else. If they had a free choice, I don't think this war would be happening. Should we restrict coin sales to stop the flow of Putin's supporters' assets? Of course. Should we try to engineer the downfall of their society by banning Russians from getting interested in Roman coins? It's very unlikely that would even work. And what if it did? We'd have a generation of Russian children who were banned from taking an interest in other cultures. That narrative is only going in one direction.

[seth77]

35 minutes ago, CPK said:

It also doesn't work this way in any community. It is sadly naive to think that education and intelligence can be a sufficient antidote - or an antidote at all - to evil. Human nature doesn't change just because you become more educated or have more money - if anything, that only facilitates the preexisting inclination towards evil which exists in all humans, Ukranian as well as "ruzzian".

If I may, I'd also like to say this: I'm uncomfortable with the tendency I see here and elsewhere to completely idolize one side and demonize the other. It's a natural thing to do (speaking of human nature) and I think we all recognize that in this conflict, Russia was the unjustified aggressor - but I'd like to think we can acknowledge this without labeling all Russians (as implied above) as chauvinistic, genocidal, and murderous. I'd also like to think we can acknowledge that Ukraine was the victim in this conflict, without treating all of its citizens and actions as perfect, above reproach, and off-limits for criticism.

War is always ugly and horrible, and I want to see the suffering ended as soon as possible, for the Russians as well as the Ukrainians.

With that said, I agree with @Limes, I don't see this topic going anywhere productive.

One does not need to 'idolize' a side to acknowledge that the other is pure evil. The realization that the russian aggressor is in fact evil is a contextualization of the facts on the ground, from both intent and action undertaken. If the russians had their way in 2022, they had kill lists and instructions for mass graves -- on the kill lists being whole families of Ukrainian local leaders, politicians, teachers, priests, entrepreneurs/business owners and professionals. In places like Bucha or Irpin, where they stationed on their way to Kyiv, they engaged in full-fledged genocide, and not by mistake, but directly by russian orcs purposefully killing Ukrainian civilians where they found them. While no side is beyond criticism or 'perfect' (nobody is perfect), it is (or should be) clear that the side of the aggressor is evil by any measure and criteria. 

As for russians being chauvinistic and xenophobic in general, this opinion comes from countries in Eastern Europe that have unfortunately been neighbors to russia in all of its incarnations. And about genocidal, given their chance, yes, russians have been genocidal historically and are now. 

Edited November 23 by seth77