What are your ‘unpopular opinions’ regarding ancient coin collecting?

[AncientCoinnoisseur]

First of all:

• This is a safe space
• ‘Friendly banter’ is allowed, judging is not. After all, tastes are subjective (‘de gustibus non disputandum est’!)
• This could also be a place to learn about the motivations behind some things we don’t find appealing!

Having said all that, I’ll start with some of my personal preferences that might be considered ‘unpopular’:

• I like keeping my coins close, and look at them / touch them. So while I get why they do it (and I might start doing it soon), I don’t like keeping my coins closed in a deposit box in a bank. (But again, I perfectly understand). Same thing applies for slabs, but I feel this is a topic that has been discussed enough;
• Just like I don’t see the appeal of collecting pennies all similar to each other, with just a different year stamped on it, I don’t get the appeal of collecting ancient coins that all look alike and maybe only have a different legend (like COSII instead of COSIII or stuff like that). For the same reason, unless I’m looking at a specific year for historical significance, I don’t like paying a premium for a rarer legend.
• Unless you are trying to complete a specific collection and need a placeholder because a good specimen would be way too expensive, I don’t get people who pay over 2k for a coin looking like this. At that point, just wait some more and spend a bit more for a recognisable coin, or get another better-looking one. Again, to each his own, but still… I waited years for my Pharos of Alexandria, but at least I’m happy with it, even though I spent more on it.
• I know why people do it, but I still find it ‘unfair’ to bid on your own coins you submitted. I mean, I might actually do it if I ever submitted one for auction, but still… it feels wrong.
• I don’t get the ‘quantity over quality’ mentality. I get wanting more less expensive coins, nothing wrong with that, but I’ve seen people spend hundreds upon hundreds in almost unrecognisable coins with close to no identifiable / nice coins in their collection, when with the same amount of money they could have built a decent collection of nice coins. I get it if you like cleaning them or are hunting rarities in group lots, but aside from that I don’t think I can relate much with this behaviour.

I think these are my main ones, I might add more. What are your unpopular opinions?

 

[JayAg47]

Regarding that colosseum sestertius, I would absolutely pay 2k for it, granted it is genuine and slabbed. I don’t like slabbed ancients, but this one will be an exception. Didn’t we have a discussion on that same coin being tooled or not even a colosseum coin?! 

[Brennos]

That American collectors do not buy coins in European sales.

 

🙂

 

[JAZ Numismatics]

Well for starters, "safe spaces" are for children. Adults who wish to express themselves freely understand that they can't go through life expecting everyone to agree with them all the time on all the issues. That's a petty-dictator level of hubris.

That being said, I believe colorized quarters are far superior to uncolorized.

[ominus1]

24 minutes ago, Brennos said:

That American collectors do not buy coins in European sales.

 

🙂

 

...you can't be serious....i'm spending over $500 on 2 bronze medals to Deutsch & French folks today 9_9  (of course those aren't really coins now are they  :D)

[ominus1]

...ok i guess mine is  no one will perish if they don't get a coin they want...^^

[Roman Collector]

I'm very opinionated, to be sure, but none of my opinions are unpopular, so I have little to share. If pressed, I would say the least popular of my opinions is that I think too much emphasis is placed nowadays on grade and not enough on historical significance, completeness, or rarity. This is a different mindset than collectors had in the 19th century. 

[Finn235]

1. I love the obverses on those Syracuse issues, but I don't find the "tangle of horses" reverse visually appealing at all. Worse, most of them seem terribly struck. I just don't understand how everyone says they are "the most beautiful coin ever made"

2. Whenever a complete newbie wanders into this black hole from collecting US Classic coinage to ask how to pick their first ancient, the default advice shouldn't be to tell them to go onto Vcoins and blow their entire budget on the nicest coin they can afford. They have NO idea about the nuances of this hobby and what could make something like a Trajan denarius worth $25, versus $50, 150, or 500. In my view, spending $250 on a $50 coin is not much better than blowing $200 on fakes on ebay.

[CPK]

I don't think the old maxim "buy the book before the coin" is particularly useful advice for a beginning collector of ancient coins. What book? The field is so vast, and even those beginners who do find a specialty niche generally take quite a time getting there. Don't be dumb, do your research as you would for any purchase so you won't overpay - but buy some coins! Discover what appeals to you. After your interests begin to define themselves, and you mature as a collector, you may wish to add a few more scholarly works to your library.

[AncientCoinnoisseur]

@JayAg47 I created this thread exactly to discuss with others and understand their motivations, without judging anyone. My question is: why would you spend 2k for that coin exactly? (Again, not judging, I’m trying to understand). 

For example, I buy coins for their eye appeal or historical significance, or for a cool story connected to them. In the case of the Colosseum sestertius, for me the only reason I would buy one is to see the Colosseum as it was when it had just been built, with the statues, the quadriga on the entrance, the Meta Sudans on the left/right. The whole purpose of that coin is to show me something  that does not exist anymore. For the same reason I spent well over 1k for my Pharos of Alexandria because all the features were visible, but I would have never bought a completely worn one where no feature of the lighthouse was visible. So my question is: what is for you the appeal of owning a coin that worn where nothing was left of it? Filling a hole in the collection or there is something more to it? (Again, genuinely curious, not judging!)

@JAZ Numismatics Hey, nobody needs to accept anyone’s opinion, you can think I’m an idiot for thinking what I wrote 😉 Everyone has the right of having unpopular opinions and anyone has a right not to like those, as long as we do it respectfully. That was my idea of ‘safe space’, i.e. “you can disagree, just don’t be a dick about it” 🙂 

@Roman Collector Agreed, I even prefer some of my coins to be a bit worn so that they have more history to it (like my Caesar elephant and Alexander lifetime tet of Babylon). And I very much prefer a historically significant but worn coin to a pristine albeit ‘anonymous’ one.

@Finn235 I agree on the reverses, there are some better ones and I also agree on them being mostly poorly struck, but those obverses probably make up for it! As for your second point, I agree completely. I remember when I first started, everyone told me: “Go on Vcoins” and “Always buy the best you can afford”. It’s not that straightforward!

@CPK I couldn’t agree more! Buying coins make you fall into a rabbit hole, which makes you discover things, which are connected to other things, whixh in turn make you discover more coins, which make you want to buy other coins, which spark interest in other areas and make you discover more, and buy more and so on! You can quickly spiral into madness though, so I recommend it but I also don’t 🙂 

[Finn235]

14 minutes ago, CPK said:

I don't think the old maxim "buy the book before the coin" is particularly useful advice for a beginning collector of ancient coins. What book? The field is so vast, and even those beginners who do find a specialty niche generally take quite a time getting there. Don't be dumb, do your research as you would for any purchase so you won't overpay - but buy some coins! Discover what appeals to you. After your interests begin to define themselves, and you mature as a collector, you may wish to add a few more scholarly works to your library.

What? Surely you MUST buy the book

 

Before you can even *think* about buying the coin!

[ambr0zie]

My unpopular opinions:

1. Even if I admire coins in pristine condition, I find them overpriced. This doesn't mean I gather all the weak examples I can find. I avoid slugs. I have some coins in exceptional condition because I simply liked them. But not just the condition. The style, the coin type, the artistry. But this is also very valid for other coins in modest conditions. If the coin is important to my collecting themes AND presentable for my standards (fully attributable) AND the price is good, I do not hesitate.

2. Some coin types are overrated. Even if they are beautiful, historically interesting, after 4 years of active collecting, I fail to see an answer to the question I had in my first month - why are the coin types X, Y, Z, common and found in almost every auction, but even modest examples bring a fat price.

3. Greek small (as in very small) fractions are very attractive and hidden gems. Underrated. I collect them avidly, especially when they depict beautiful portraits, animals, various scenes. I am glad they are usually not popular, as people prefer chunky coins. There is only one danger - sneezing with a tetartemorion in hand could mean you lose it on the carpet. Acceptable risk. 

Is this coin worth 11 euros? (the details are much better in reality, but after a lot of attempts, I can't focus the photo right). I think it does. 

5. Some Roman Emperors are again overrated. Unless I win the lottery (unlikely as I do not play), I will not pay a fat price for a coin from an emperor who was short lived and had basically no effect on history. Sure, it is nice to add a rarity, but for my strategy, adding a dull, worn coin at the cost of 4-5 nice coins is not the way I choose to collect. 

6. Nobody noticed point 4 is missing.

7. A collection needs to have a clear direction - but as clear as we can but still maintaining the pleasure to collect. I think that "directions" such as "you need a Julius Caesar portrait" or "you need to get one coin per emperor" or "that Galba is poor, you need a better one" are nonsense. What I need is that all the coins in my collection bring me joy. Adding a Didius Julianus even as a good deal will not bring me any joy. Adding a coin, random example, a Trajan denarius with an interesting reverse will bring me more joy, even at 1/10 of the price. 

[AncientJoe]

Controversial opinion from me: I find NGC to be a valuable service at times. It's sometimes impractical to view lots in-hand and NGC renders an unbiased opinion which may differ from the dealer/auction house.

That said, I disagree with paying the absurd premiums that "star" holders bring (and the premium that most slabbed coins carry in general). However, I have even sent coins in myself to be graded (and subsequently cracked them out), just to have an unbiased check to ensure I wasn't missing anything.

In one case, I did miss something, as did the dealer that sold it to me, and NGC's opinion helped me get a refund.

--

I also have had a lot of success with Ex-Numis. I know some collectors have been bothered by its ineffective searches - and it has missed its fair share of pedigrees for me too - but it's also found some excellent pedigrees so I habitually run all new coins through it.

[AncientJoe]

One more unpopular opinion: there are many expensive dies of coins that I find just plain ugly. There must be some people who want them but I just can't convince myself to bid on some of them!

[Heliodromus]

2 hours ago, Brennos said:

That American collectors do not buy coins in European sales.

Really? I wish that were true in my collecting area!

Personally, as a US-based collector, I totally ignore auction locations. If there's a coin I want/need, I'll bid on it wherever it surfaces! I suppose it's a bit different for those whose collection focus is less about "must have" rarities that may only appear once every 5/10/20 years, and those with more eclectic tastes who may choose from whatever is available and appeals from selected auction venues of choice.

If I had to guess, probably 80%, or more, of my coins come from overseas - primarily europe since sadly the rest of the former roman empire doesn't exactly encourage coin sales! At least for Roman coins, I assume that the majority of collectors, and hence coin sales, are from europe rather than the US or elsewhere?

 

Edited November 18, 2024 by Heliodromus

[AncientCoinnoisseur]

@ambr0zie 1) I agree, I prefer a coin more worn but in better style than one in pristine condition but of worse style. I only have 1-2 coins that can be considered good EF / FDC. 2) Exactly, for me it’s the Athens tetradrachm. 3) Ah, yes, I remember your Marilyn Manson coin! Jokes aside, I should start getting into those. My smallest one is a Histiaia tetrobol that I cherish, but I know there are much smaller ones! 4)  5) Agreed 6) I did 🙂 7) Perfectly worded and my exact line of reasoning!

@AncientJoe  I agree with NGC being useful in the cases you described, and I’ve given myself ex-numis a go, although it requires a lot of patience! Still no found provenances so far, but I’ve barely scratched the surface. My dream would be to have fully indexed catalogues where you input the coin type and all the photos of that coin pop up! As for the expensive-but-ugly dies, I very much prefer the regular but cheaper elephant to the more expensive pig-like for the Caesar denarius, and I will die on this hill. I mean:

 >>>

[Heliodromus]

26 minutes ago, AncientJoe said:

However, I have even sent coins in myself to be graded (and subsequently cracked them out), just to have an unbiased check to ensure I wasn't missing anything.

 

I've seen a (very) few NGC photo certificates, which make sense for those who want the NGC authentication expertise without the slabbing, but I've never seen this service actually advertized. I'm curious if anyone knows if this service still exists, or is on-request only, or anything about it!

[Kamnaskires]

That imaginative and well-designed abstraction can constitute artistic mastery every bit as much as the advanced ability to depict subject matter realistically. In other words, that while Hellenistic naturalism may be the pinnacle of realistic depiction on ancient coinage, it is not necessarily the pinnacle of numismatic artistry overall. Context, artistic style, and – most importantly - the die engraver’s intent should be considered in the assessment.

[Sulla80]

@AncientCoinnoisseur, an interesting thread - always fun to stir a little controversy.  Discussions about unpopular opinions in ancient coin collecting can be both enlightening and thought-provoking. The perspectives shared in the thread highlight the diverse approaches and preferences within this NF community.

thinking about my own "unpopular opinions" - the first one that comes to mind is that I find some very popular and widely available coins boring - Ceasarean elephants, Athenian owl - this hasn't stopped me from owning one of each.  This general contrariness has the benefit of finding entertainment in some unusual but not highly sought after coins. 

@Kamnaskires I am pondering your thought - I find interest/beauty in the technical and artistic elements of coins that are not classically (Hellenisticly?) beautiful.  I would be interested to see your favorite coin in this category - here are the first two that came to mind for me.... some Kushan gold coins (of which I have none) might be my Sicily equivalent...

 

 

[Phil Davis]

I've always considered the decadrachms of Syracuse to be overrated, pretty enough certainly, and technically adroit, but soulless. Even among Syracusan coins, I much prefer the best of the tetradrachms, like this one:

[Deinomenid]

Unpopular  opinions-

1) I don't pay much attention to Sear certificates anymore, as his success rate is mixed.

2) I find NGC dating ranges on some Greek coins extremely lazy. "Drive a bus through" ranges.

3) NGC struggles more with ancient counterfeits. I just bought yet another example last week in a slab, admittedly a slightly obscure fake, but a regular  Syracuse tet supposedly, so hardly off-piste and it's in the freaking main text book.... (I knew what I was buying, it wasn't something I'm  upset about, but it was  wrongly described again)

4) I have a terrible compulsion  to correct people who  talk about  Syracuse having the horses on the reverse. That was late in their output, sorry @Finn235 😀

5) I find the "peak Athens" fanboy culture, on coins and on their broader role, annoyingly superficial. There are many horrendous things they did, even judged by standards of the  time, and a few superb plays and statues don't paper those over.  I will though happily retract this statement for one of their dekadrachms.

[kirispupis]

9 minutes ago, Deinomenid said:

5) I find the "peak Athens" fanboy culture, on coins and on their broader role, annoyingly superficial. There are many horrendous things they did, even judged by standards of the  time, and a few superb plays and statues don't paper those over.  I will though happily retract this statement for one of their dekadrachms.

I don't know about that. I expect not a single inhabitant of Melos in 415 BCE would have agreed with this statement...

[Herodotus]

There's a high probablity that some of my coins are likely 'conflict' coins.  That is, they were looted in conflict zones by unsavory characters (I.E. Syria), smuggled into Europe, and then auctioned to me in group lots by so-called 'reputable' auction houses.

Unpopular opinion: I don't care.

Better for them to be liberated from the ground and in my collection to be studied/appreciated by me (& with others), instead of sitting stored deep in some museum basement uncatalogued, and collecting 'bronze disease'.

[Rand]

Find provenance is (by far) more important than sale/ex-collection provenance 

 

[John Conduitt]

At the risk of making unpopular views popular, I agree with many of the views posted...

- 'Buy the book before the coin' and 'buy the best coin you can afford' raise good points a beginner should consider, but taken literally are not great advice.

- TPGs are a good thing. They verify authenticity (yes, could do better, but still) and a coin's description - smoothing, tooling etc. The problem is the muddled concept of grading and the way it's used to amplify and monetise differences you can hardly see. But that is to do with the way collectors and dealers - usually of modern coins - use them. NGC's ancients system is less objectionable. I don't think the slabs are even necessary given the photos (and lack of guarantee for ancients) so maybe one day we will not have coins locked away in plastic.

- I like quality and quantity. In fact, I think there's a problem assuming a pristine coin is 'better'. It likely came straight out of a mint and into a hole, with not one of our ancestors touching it. Not interesting. That doesn't mean I don't consider beauty, but it's just another attribute. One good thing about hammered coins is that most 'faults' are not picked on by other collectors, as really they rarely detract from the enjoyment of a coin, unless you truly believe pristine is 'better'. (This view makes collecting milled coins decidedly unenjoyable).

- Given the last point, find provenance is almost as important as the coin. And actually, I like ex-collection provenances too, if historical or numismatic. I know collectors of Greek coins and the like do not care about it, given the authorities would rather they had no collection at all, but I imagine everyone would rather all coins had a find provenance if only it was legal to own them.

- Not all usurpers were emperors. Just because someone put their face on a coin, doesn't mean they ruled anyone but their own backyard. Unless you're collecting the unofficial coins of the barbarian frontier along the Danube in the 3rd Century, you do not need Regalianus. Or if you want every person ever featured on a coin vaguely associated with the Romans, you'll also need one of his wife.

I have heard plenty of times that some American collectors refuse to buy outside the US, playing up to the insular stereotype, but I'm not going to encourage them...