Tedious types, apathetic ancients & numbing numismatics: Coins I wish I could but just can't

[seth77]

16 hours ago, Severus Alexander said:

@Ryro, Ryro, Ryro!!  You are missing out when it comes to Byzantine, my man!  It is absolutely chock-a-block with comedy gold!!

 

 

I often find myself thinking 'damn If I were the emperor back when these die cutters were cutting these dies damn I'd be royally pissed at them.' Just look at that first Fokas there. If you see it you can't not think that whoever did it was purposefully mocking the emperor. And what in Cthulhu's name is that silly hat he's got going on. All those dies look cut like everyday was Friday afternoon at the Byzantine mints.

 

Edited July 31, 2022 by seth77

[Steppenfool]

I collect Roman Imperial because the historical source material for that period is abundant and of high quality. It is easy to make links between the coinage and actual events taking place on the ground. The artistry/style was not fixed so there is a lot of variation on offer to clearly depict various messages/events. Furthermore, artistic flair and other differences show up between mints which makes for a great deal of mystery and exploration. There is also a multitude of fascinating phenomena such as transitional portraits, varying legends etc. 

I was going to add that I collect Roman Imperial coinage because it is my favourite period of history, but I think that is a corollary from my first sentence.

I stop collecting at 363 AD because that is when the reverse imagery becomes quite boring to me. This trend towards boring imagery is only exacerbated in the "Byzantine" period.  I may move into Roman Republican denarii for similar historical connections, but I find they are harder to come by. Often the only historical connection is that the moneyer was significant. Of course there are exceptions, such as Brutus' Libertas denarii, where the imagery is also historically significant.

[GregH]

On 7/31/2022 at 10:28 AM, JeandAcre said:

are

 

On 7/31/2022 at 4:57 AM, Ryro said:

Not to, yuck anyone's yum, but after half a decade or more of ancient collecting there are a few types that I just can't get down with. 

Initially I was going to ask where those that browse auctions start and stop. Ie, I start at the beginning with Celtics, archaics, Greeks and whatnot. Check out all the offerings through provincials, which I used to skip over (what a fool I was). And once I get to Rome I'll usually stop after the Severans.

Don't get me wrong I still collect the occasional LRB right up to Arcadius or so but then stop once I get to the...

Boring Byzantines: Artistry as bad if not worse than the limp rulers? What more needs to be said😉

(I've spit out chewed up bubble gum that had more artistry)

Chinese checkers: Time to flex my ignorance muscles with this statement; they all look the same! Thousands of years of picture less, pointless coins that's only difference is the writing. I might as well collect CVS receipts. Though, I must admit being from the west I do lack the knowledge and stories of the great men and women that made that empire flourish to the present day that may make the coins palatable for some. 

(Ooh, wow. Look at the way they put a square in the middle, insert face palm here)

So, there are a couple of mine. What about you?

ps, This is just for fun, so please show other collectors of these atrocious types respect while explaining why their favorites ain't so favorable. 

 

While I'm an atheist, and probably with similar views on religion to yourself, I am a history fan and find the religious imagery of the dark ages haunting. While the artistry on many Byzantine coins makes then almost uncollectable, there are a few stand-out pieces that I keep in my collection. For example, this mammoth follis of Justinian I, measuring 43mm in diameter. Year 12 of his reign saw some incredibly sized coins. There must be a reason for it, does anybody know?

 

Yes, i find Chinese and Islamic coins very dull. The Islamic series, with a few exceptions, consists of coins with Arabic script and no imagery - boring AF.

But most of all i hate modern coins minted specifically for collectors. Is it even a coin if it was never intended to be used as money?

Here's a couple of cheesy examples of what i consider pure garbage that i have found on the internet! Who buys these things???

 

 

 

[GregH]

1 hour ago, Steppenfool said:

I collect Roman Imperial because the historical source material for that period is abundant and of high quality. It is easy to make links between the coinage and actual events taking place on the ground. The artistry/style was not fixed so there is a lot of variation on offer to clearly depict various messages/events. Furthermore, artistic flair and other differences show up between mints which makes for a great deal of mystery and exploration. There is also a multitude of fascinating phenomena such as transitional portraits, varying legends etc. 

I was going to add that I collect Roman Imperial coinage because it is my favourite period of history, but I think that is a corollary from my first sentence.

I stop collecting at 363 AD because that is when the reverse imagery becomes quite boring to me. This trend towards boring imagery is only exacerbated in the "Byzantine" period.  I may move into Roman Republican denarii for similar historical connections, but I find they are harder to come by. Often the only historical connection is that the moneyer was significant. Of course there are exceptions, such as Brutus' Libertas denarii, where the imagery is also historically significant.

I agree that post 363AD, the numismatic themes of Roman coins become generic and dull. I prefer to collect gold solidi from this period - what it lacks in interesting numismatic themes, it makes up for in eye appeal.

[John Conduitt]

I don't know why, but I find it hard to get excited about Classical Greek. I think it's because the history seems more disconnected from the coin, and I prefer that to beauty or mythology. There are some breathtaking Greek coins but there are usually many very similar, and it's like scrolling through a hundred copies of the Mona Lisa trying to decide which smile I like best. Then the one I like costs $1000 more than the others, but I can't settle for a worse one, as I'm only going on looks.

[GregH]

12 hours ago, John Conduitt said:

I don't know why, but I find it hard to get excited about Classical Greek. I think it's because the history seems more disconnected from the coin, and I prefer that to beauty or mythology. There are some breathtaking Greek coins but there are usually many very similar, and it's like scrolling through a hundred copies of the Mona Lisa trying to decide which smile I like best. Then the one I like costs $1000 more than the others, but I can't settle for a worse one, as I'm only going on looks.

Yeah, engraving style is everything with Ancient Greek coins. Mediocre style is affordable, but this is Ancient Greece - you want top quality art!

Compare these Aspendos wrestler pieces. Entry level just isn’t good enough!  

[GregH]

Sasanians are another series that i'm not too passionate about. Nonetheless, i have a few on my tray of random odds and ends.

There doesn't seem to be much variety in the series - except each ruler has a different crown.

Maybe i'll find the passion to complete the set. Or maybe I'll sell them.

[Valentinian]

On 8/1/2022 at 3:22 AM, GregH said:

I agree that post 363AD, the numismatic themes of Roman coins become generic and dull.

For many years I was glad most collectors felt that way--leaving the field more open for me! I got RIC IX which is about the period after 364 AD (and, later, when it was published, RIC X) and made lists of types and emperors. I collected the AE types and learned which were scarcer for which rulers. Eventually, I turned my notes into a large website:
http://augustuscoins.com/ed/ricix/ 
with about 100 pages of information about the types. 
  Now, because the field is not popular and because inexpensive coins are cheaper than ever, it would be a great theme to begin collecting on a budget, especially at European auctions which may have very many examples available beginning at low prices (5 euros, or even 1 euro). 
  I admit many coin types are immediately more interesting and attractive than post-364-AD AE Roman coins. But, study them for a while and you might find them very interesting after all. 



Theodosius
23 mm. 6:00. 5.43 grams.
GLORIA ROMANORVM. Emperor in galley (the ship of state) left, Victory at the helm. Struck 378-388.
CONA, wreath in field left.
RIC Constantinople 52c3.

Struck for Gratian, Valentinian II, and Theodosius and common for all three.

[kirispupis]

For me, pretty much anything later than late Roman I just don't find very interesting.

If I were to pick one category at the bottom it would be Byzantine. I just can't really identify with them and I neither own one nor ever considered one.

I also don't own a single Roman Republican, though I do find the coins interesting. I just hold back due to budget.

[Phil Anthos]

ummm... Greek coins pretty!

~ Peter 

[AETHER]

400bc-ish -> 200ad-ish is my main interest, Greek and Roman, but I had some others outside of this. 

 

[expat]

4th century BC - 3rd century AD is my area of collecting. Pretty eclectic tastes, Greek, Provincials, Republican and Imperial. Republicans with differing reverse than Victory with a horse(s) pulled chariot is better. In the poll my three choices for least liked are Persian, Byzantine and Chinese. I have one Islamic and one Medieval but am not actively looking for more.

Examples of what I like

Lysimachos, Kingdom of Thrace, AE 20mm, 5.20 gr. Generous flan. Lysimachia mint. 305-281 BC. Helmeted head of Athena right / BAΣIΛEΩΣ ΛYΣIMAXOY, above and beneath lion leaping right, spearhead and M on O monogram below. Mueller 74.

AR denarius (3,87 g. 17 mm.). Rome, 138 B.C. C Renius
Head of Roma right, wearing winged helmet and 5 drop earring; behind, X designating value/
C•RENI below, ROMA in exergue, Juno Caprotina, holding crook, reins and scepter, driving biga of goats right.
Crawford 231/1; Sydenham 432; Renia 1.

AUGUSTUS. Æ. As. (Caesaraugusta, (Tarraconensis) Zaragoza, Spain)
Magistrates: Gnaeus Domitius Ampianus, Gaius Vettius Lancianus
Obverse: IMP. AVGVSTVS. TRIB. POTS. XX., laureate head of Augustus to the right.
Reverse: CAES. AVGVS (clockwise from 10-1). CN. DOM. AMP. C. VET. LANC (anti clockwise from 8-2). Priest ploughing with pair of oxen to the right. Below II (with horizontal line above) VIR. (*)
RPC volume I, #320
Leaded bronze,12.85g. 31mm. Reference: Vives 148–10, GMI 328, Beltrán 16, NAH 982, AB. 327.

[robinjojo]

The three areas that I chose Persian, LRB and Chinese.  It's really not that I find these areas of collecting boring - I am sure that that offer very interesting historical aspects and challenging collecting goals - the issue for me is just not being able to concentrate or devote any time to these areas, being more of a generalist collector.  Those three areas, for sure, offer a rich tapestry of history in their own rights.

I've always tried to view coins in a historical context, in other words they reflect the times during which they were produced.  Of course the classical styles are beautiful, but they, like everything else, change for better or worse, aesthetically speaking.  So, with this approach I welcome the crude Byzantine folles along with the refined coins of the Hellenistic Period.

Edited November 19, 2023 by robinjojo

[GregH]

As i've started to collect Russian coins, i'll add that only the 18th century coins of the Romanovs are interesting.

Peter I the Great, Peter II, Catherine I, Anna, Elizabeth, Ivan VI, Catherine II - what a splendid portrait series. I love nice big roubles of these rulers.

Prior to Peter I, you just have unimpressive wire money. After Catherine II, we have no portrait coins of the Romanovs until Alexander III, late in the 19th century.

So i focus on the 18th century for my Russian collection.

[panzerman]

On 7/30/2022 at 5:16 PM, Kali said:

Very easy, Chinese. Never could get into that coinage & never will.

Could not agree more!!!!!! I have ZERO from China.

[panzerman]

On 8/1/2022 at 6:19 AM, GregH said:

 

 

While I'm an atheist, and probably with similar views on religion to yourself, I am a history fan and find the religious imagery of the dark ages haunting. While the artistry on many Byzantine coins makes then almost uncollectable, there are a few stand-out pieces that I keep in my collection. For example, this mammoth follis of Justinian I, measuring 43mm in diameter. Year 12 of his reign saw some incredibly sized coins. There must be a reason for it, does anybody know?

 

Yes, i find Chinese and Islamic coins very dull. The Islamic series, with a few exceptions, consists of coins with Arabic script and no imagery - boring AF.

But most of all i hate modern coins minted specifically for collectors. Is it even a coin if it was never intended to be used as money?

Here's a couple of cheesy examples of what i consider pure garbage that i have found on the internet! Who buys these things???

 

 

 

I cannot stand modern kitch esp. "coloured" coins. I have a 1969 AV Proof Set from Biafra which are beautifull for modern era.

[GregH]

5 minutes ago, panzerman said:

I cannot stand modern kitch esp. "coloured" coins. I have a 1969 AV Proof Set from Biafra which are beautifull for modern era.

I had to look up Biafra. A partially recognised country in West Africa from 1967-1970. What an unusual coin!

What's your collecting theme? Gold coins from every country/civilisation?

[panzerman]

I collect everything from 670BC -1969

 

My favorite coinage in order/

Holy Roman Empire

Baroque 1650-1750

Renaissance

Medieval

Byzantine

Roman

Dark Ages

Greek

Indian/ Kushan/ Gupta/ Hunnic

Persian/ Sasanian

Archaic electrum

[panzerman]

2 hours ago, GregH said:

I had to look up Biafra. A partially recognised country in West Africa from 1967-1970. What an unusual coin!

What's your collecting theme? Gold coins from every country/civilisation?

That was the first coin (proof set) that I bought with my hard earned money working for a lawn care company. I had to save up a few pay checks tp acquire it from Swiss numismatic firm. Cost was $1100US back then. Set contains five coins= 4 oz. gold. I had the coins graded/ even though I never touched them/ they only graded PROOF 67😝 Still have them/ as all my stuff. I NEVER sell anything. My collection so far and counting is at 1232 AV coins/ some AR Denari (56) I have 3-or more from every century/ 1700-99 is best (230 coins)

I try to collect highest quality that I can afford/ have a dickens of a time getting high quality Spanish gold Florins d'oro/ most in auctions are ratty quality.

John

[Sulla80]

@Ryro - this thread managed to stay on an interesting track of "what do you find attractive".  There is no coin type or time period for which I wouldn't be interested in seeing (or even owning) one coin. 

(top to bottom: Armenia AE Tanka; Genoa Denaro Conrad III; Siege of Kurzuwan; Kay Ka'us II Dirham Seljuk Rum; Manuel I Comnenus Aspron Trachy; AR Miliarension Basil II Constantine VIII; Spain Philip IV 8 Maravedis; Venice Giovanni Soranzo AR Grosso; Sicily AE William the Good)

However I tend to gravitate to coins for which there is a bit more known about the people than the coin alone and some diversity in the coin types. Coins that all look alike or  are less likely to grab my interest.  unless of course there is a good story: https://www.sullacoins.com/post/coins-from-ancient-india

or an interesting variation

or an interesting variation & a good story

https://www.sullacoins.com/post/a-bride-from-kublai-khan

or an unusual shape

https://www.sullacoins.com/post/out-of-my-comfort-zone

I am not sure I am making the case effectively against the coins that I don't like.  I generally end up in the 2nd and 1st century BC, and own more than one coin from the Roman Republic (and the peoples that they interacted with), with lot of known characters/families, contemporary stories, coins that can be linked with specific individuals, coins that depict a variety of scenes, symbols, deities and people, and not to mention some characters that inspired the revolutionaries that established the modern republic that I live in.  https://www.sullacoins.com/post/an-ancient-coin-for-independence-day

https://www.sullacoins.com/post/roman-voting-laws

Edited November 22, 2023 by Sulla80

[CPK]

On 7/30/2022 at 10:36 PM, Severus Alexander said:

@Ryro, Ryro, Ryro!!  You are missing out when it comes to Byzantine, my man!  It is absolutely chock-a-block with comedy gold!!

 

🤣 It's suddenly dawned on me who Phocas reminded me of: