Buying coins from Italy

[Mucius Scaevola]

Hello there.

 

I‘m looking for a nice imperial quinarius and finally found one. But..the coin is in Italy and of course the seller doesn‘t want to start this procedure of getting the documents, as it takes months..

 

does anyone know a workaround here? A vacation was planned, not even far from the shop, but a surgery destroyed this plans🙃

[Prieure de Sion]

46 minutes ago, Mucius Scaevola said:

Hello there.

 

I‘m looking for a nice imperial quinarius and finally found one. But..the coin is in Italy and of course the seller doesn‘t want to start this procedure of getting the documents, as it takes months..

 

does anyone know a workaround here? A vacation was planned, not even far from the shop, but a surgery destroyed this plans🙃

There is no “workaround”.
 
To export the coin abroad, he needs permission from the authorities. This can take 3 months, 6 months - but more likely 12 months or more. And very often the permission is forbidden by the authorities and no documents are issued.

The problem is. The dealer must have an inventory list and prove each ancient coin sold to whom it was sold. So he can either apply for the documents - or lie - and say he sold the coin within Italy. However, if it turns out that he did sell the coin to a foreigner, he could face prison. This is unlikely for the first offense - but he will 100% get a fine, which is extremely high - currently I think at least 30,000 euros and more.

In the meantime, I would also advise against buying and collecting in person. Unless you also fancy Italian prisons.
 
He can sell you the coin and hand it over to you - you then have to sign a document stating that you will take care of the documents for export yourself. You assure him with your data and signature that you have obtained and have the export documents. This relieves the Italian seller. 
 
The only problem is that he will pass this document on to the Italian authorities. The authorities will then realize that you never applied for the documents. 
 
If I were you, I wouldn't go on vacation in Italy in the future.

 

I know what I'm talking about. I wanted to buy coins in Milan and take them with me. The seller didn't want to have export documents drawn up himself either (the prospect is uncertain). So the Italian sellers have a document with which I confirm that I have applied for the export documents myself or that I already have them. As I wrote - the Italian sellers are not keen on the very high penalties in the meantime - and the sellers are extremely controlled!
 
I then asked the seller what would happen to this document from me. It goes to the authorities and they check whether I have really applied for and received an export document. And if not, then it's bad for me. 
 
I have no desire to get a penalty order to Germany. But above all, I'm in Italy several times a year. And I have no desire to be taken away to Italy after checking into a hotel or a traffic check - if my address is checked.

So - forget the coin. You won't get it out of Italy legally.

[Mucius Scaevola]

Thank you for the information. Quite sad, but nothing we can do here. Maybe I will make it to Italy a bit later and then grab it, if it's still available.

[Prieure de Sion]

6 minutes ago, Mucius Scaevola said:

Maybe I will make it to Italy a bit later and then grab it, if it's still available.

As I wrote - if the seller is reputable, he will have you fill out and sign a document in which you guarantee that you have applied for the export papers yourself and will get them from the Italian authorities. And the Italian authorities will check this afterwards! And if you live within the EU (and cannot submit the documents), the authorities will file an EU criminal complaint against you. Or you should no longer set foot on Italian soil.

I ‘admire’ your lightness of touch. But you do realise that if you are found out, you will have to pay a fine the size of a luxury car? 

Well, the Italian authorities can't take a joke anymore. Risking a fine of up to 100,000 euros over a coin? And the risk is currently extremely high. Including future entry bans?

Well, I could have picked up some extremely cool Republicans in Milan this year - but after the dealer explained to me how strong and strict the controls are in Italy and what penalties await me - I didn't dare pick up the coins in person. 

But you need to know that...

[Mucius Scaevola]

You answered my previous question and I'm very thankful for this. What I'll do during my Italy trips, are my choices as a (quite) grown man, Mr W. Don't take it in a bad way, as I said - I'm thankful for the provided information. And, technically, you don't know what my procedure would be.

Edited October 8, 2024 by Mucius Scaevola

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

I hope that you are able to get it out of Italy.  Here's an ugly coin, but it evidently came from a time when more sense prevailed.

 

[Mucius Scaevola]

1 minute ago, Nerosmyfavorite68 said:

I hope that you are able to get it out of Italy.  Here's an ugly coin, but it evidently came from a time when more sense prevailed.

 

Ancient coins are never ugly 😎 I remember that I had a coin from Baranowsky too. I just forgot which one it was 😁

[Hrefn]

Coins in Spain over 100 years old also require an export license.   The license is free for export to the EU, but amounts to 5% of the hammer price on a coin I am having shipped to the USA.  

I am reminded of Allen Berman’s observation that the rising auction commissions, shipping fees, and other costs are making coin shows a better option in comparison for collectors buying coins.  To which we can add the expense and inconvenience of export licenses.   

I seriously doubt the Spanish government employs anyone who knows more about the coin I purchased than I do.  I suspect the government official will rely on the auction house’s description, but the coin is incorrectly attributed!  So a license will be issued for something which does not actually exist (the coin as described).   Under this license my coin will be exported.  

The raison d’être of the regulation is to extract what amounts to a 5% sales tax for the benefit of the Spanish government on every coin over 100 years old which leaves Spain for non-EU territory.   The 100 year limit is the clue.  Machine struck coins numbering in the millions trigger the license requirement.  Even the most passionate advocate of retaining one’s country’s cultural heritage can not concoct a rationale for controlling the export of such material, or explain the process as anything but a revenue-raising measure hiding behind a thin veneer of concern for the nation’s cultural patrimony.  

The fertility rate in Spain for 2022 was 1.16 births per woman.   A couple of generations of that, and there will not be any Spaniards to worry about their cultural patrimony.  

[DonnaML]

How do ancient coin dealers in San Marino manage to acquire their coins, many presumably from Italy? There never seems to be a problem ordering and receiving coins from them from abroad.

[Salomons Cat]

2 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

How do ancient coin dealers in San Marino manage to acquire their coins, many presumably from Italy? There never seems to be a problem ordering and receiving coins from them from abroad.

I assume people simply put their coins in their pockets and take them to San Marino.
San Marino is a sovereign state and seems to have a bit more common sense than Italy when it comes to coin-related matters.

[ominus1]

...San Marino's the way to go...all these came from there with no problems...Spain & Italy are now off limits for me...

[Mucius Scaevola]

2 hours ago, Hrefn said:

Coins in Spain over 100 years old also require an export license.   The license is free for export to the EU, but amounts to 5% of the hammer price on a coin I am having shipped to the USA.  

I am reminded of Allen Berman’s observation that the rising auction commissions, shipping fees, and other costs are making coin shows a better option in comparison for collectors buying coins.  To which we can add the expense and inconvenience of export licenses.   

I seriously doubt the Spanish government employs anyone who knows more about the coin I purchased than I do.  I suspect the government official will rely on the auction house’s description, but the coin is incorrectly attributed!  So a license will be issued for something which does not actually exist (the coin as described).   Under this license my coin will be exported.  

The raison d’être of the regulation is to extract what amounts to a 5% sales tax for the benefit of the Spanish government on every coin over 100 years old which leaves Spain for non-EU territory.   The 100 year limit is the clue.  Machine struck coins numbering in the millions trigger the license requirement.  Even the most passionate advocate of retaining one’s country’s cultural heritage can not concoct a rationale for controlling the export of such material, or explain the process as anything but a revenue-raising measure hiding behind a thin veneer of concern for the nation’s cultural patrimony.  

The fertility rate in Spain for 2022 was 1.16 births per woman.   A couple of generations of that, and there will not be any Spaniards to worry about their cultural patrimony.  

In Spain it is still easier to get the needed documents. For Italy it can take forever and the chance that you get a negative answer is not even low. That's why a lot of dealers don't even bother to try, It's sad. I can understand it for rare and valuable coins, but let's be honest.. Most of our normal coins would, once they are inside a museum, never see the sunlight again.

Edited October 8, 2024 by Mucius Scaevola

[Mucius Scaevola]

1 hour ago, DonnaML said:

How do ancient coin dealers in San Marino manage to acquire their coins, many presumably from Italy? There never seems to be a problem ordering and receiving coins from them from abroad.

Exactly, that's why I thought there needs to be a way. I doubt that they do a lot of illegal traffic.

Just now, ominus1 said:

...San Marino's the way to go...all these came from there with no problems...Spain & Italy are now off limits for me...

I laready bought in San Marino. The problem - they don't always have what I need 😜

[ominus1]

10 minutes ago, Mucius Scaevola said:

they don't always have what I need

..well unless you're being held hostage for a coin..  i don't think one 'needs' any of them really 😛

[Mucius Scaevola]

3 minutes ago, ominus1 said:

..well unless you're being held hostage for a coin..  i don't think one 'needs' any of them really 😛

Well...I have a list of coin types I "need" in my collection. Please let's not start to discuss every single wording here 😉

 

A friend of mine told me today "You know that most of us coin collectors, we're similar to drug addicts?"

And he's right 😉

[robinjojo]

Weighing the risks of taking ancient or even modern coins out of Italy, with the potential of penalties in the form of hefty fines and even prison time, pragmatically points to not attempting such a task.  The imperial quinarius, as nice as it is, is not worth the risk, delay and frustration associated with exporting from Italy. 

In the world of ancient coins, supply is constantly being renewed, with fresh coins, primarily from hoards entering the market on an almost daily basis.  I am sure that with patience another quinarius will eventually appear in a more risk-free context.

[JayAg47]

Hmmm… perhaps it’s not a good idea to bring my Trajan’s column denarius to my hypothetical visit to Rome. I was fantasising about taking a selfie of myself in front of the column with the coin in my hand. 
Does this law only apply to coins found and purchased in Italy? Or can you bring one from outside and then take it out?
I bought my column denarius at a coin show in Australia for a whopping sum of $45, no receipts no provenances what so ever. I’d certainly prefer to bring back the coin to my country after the visit, and I’d rather throw it into the Trevi Fountain than hand it over to the authorities! 

Edited October 8, 2024 by JayAg47

[robinjojo]

I don't know.  Taking a coin into Italy could result in problems when you leave.  There is a risk. 

I've never taken coins abroad because of the hassle going through customs. 

Back in 1992 I bought a Nero sestertius from a coin shop in Besancon, France.  I remember the US Customs agent asking me what this coin was, and I told him that it is a sestertius.  He gave me a  questioning look and handed the coin back.  I guess I was lucky in that encounter.