Aes Signatum Amphora

[Zendi]

Hello, please help me, I am not
professional numismatist.
I inherited this coin from my late grandfather. I am interested in what is the value of this coin?
Weight: 1138g
Dimensions: 136 x 87mm
I hope to get more information on this site.

Edited October 5, 2024 by Zendi

[JAZ Numismatics]

I believe it's RRC 12/2. To my knowledge there are only two known examples: this one in The British Museum, and one in Copenhagen, KP 2060.2. It's rare enough that despite its rough grade, it might be quite valuable - IF it's authentic. As to how valuable, nobody can say. There are no auction records of similar pieces being sold. But I'm not an expert in these old Roman currency bars. Somebody else will surely come along and correct me.

[Dwarf]

The authenticity of this series was questioned by M.Crawford in CRR. He knew only the one piece in Copenhagen.
The BM coin came into the museum via Italo Vecchi. This is no good source now due the issues with the EID MAR aureus.
Thus it will take real experts (definitely not NGC) to tell something about this coin.

Regards
Klaus

[JAZ Numismatics]

Yes, I would send it to CNG and have them take a close look.

[Phil Davis]

3 hours ago, Dwarf said:

The authenticity of this series was questioned by M.Crawford in CRR. He knew only the one piece in Copenhagen.
The BM coin came into the museum via Italo Vecchi. This is no good source now due the issues with the EID MAR aureus.
Thus it will take real experts (definitely not NGC) to tell something about this coin.

Regards
Klaus

As you presumably know, the issues surrounding the Eid Mar aureus had nothing at all to do with authenticity, so your gratuitous slap at Italo Vecchi is a non sequitur. Out of curiosity, who do you consider more qualified to resolve questions of authenticity than Barry Murphy at NGC? The truth is, there are NO true "experts" regarding this coin. How could there be? I think the best approach would be to solicit multiple opinions, as many as feasible, including one or more from non-numismatists whose field is ancient bronze objects in general, and weighing their arguments and conclusions one against the other against the other.

[Bonshaw]

1 hour ago, Phil Davis said:

As you presumably know, the issues surrounding the Eid Mar aureus had nothing at all to do with authenticity, so your gratuitous slap at Italo Vecchi is a non sequitur. Out of curiosity, who do you consider more qualified to resolve questions of authenticity than Barry Murphy at NGC? The truth is, there are NO true "experts" regarding this coin. How could there be? I think the best approach would be to solicit multiple opinions, as many as feasible, including one or more from non-numismatists whose field is ancient bronze objects in general, and weighing their arguments and conclusions one against the other against the other.

I don't believe that NGC will grade this currency bar regardless. So I don't think that Barry Murphy will weigh in.

Quote

Cast Coins

Ancient cast coins are ineligible for the services of NGC Ancients. Though the vast majority of ancient coins were struck, some issues were manufactured through a casting process. Distinguishing between original cast ancient coins and modern castings is often difficult, and for this reason cast coins are ineligible for NGC Ancients grading, even if we believe them to be genuine. It was a common practice for ancient coins to be struck on cast planchets, and sometimes indications of that casting survives the striking process; this, of course, does not affect the eligibility of struck coins for grading.

From:

NGC Coins We Grade

 

 

[Bonshaw]

2 hours ago, JAZ Numismatics said:

Yes, I would send it to CNG and have them take a close look.

This sounds like good advice.

[Phil Davis]

7 minutes ago, Bonshaw said:

I don't believe that NGC will grade this currency bar regardless. So I don't think that Barry Murphy will weigh in.

 

 

 

Certainly, you're right that they won't grade it. I don't think that was the point of the "real experts" comment I responded to however.

[Bonshaw]

10 minutes ago, Phil Davis said:

Certainly, you're right that they won't grade it. I don't think that was the point of the "real experts" comment I responded to however.

I agree that soliciting multiple expert opinions is good, including some out of numismatics!

Edited October 6, 2024 by Bonshaw

[Dwarf]

6 hours ago, Phil Davis said:

I don't think that was the point of the "real experts" comment I responded to however.

While I have full respect for the knowledge of Barry Murphy I have none for NGC as a company.
A quick search in the forgery-section of the German forum will help - apart from my personal experience with some "modern" European coinage
https://www.numismatikforum.de/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=53721&p=570736&hilit=heritage#p570737
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=5216768
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=4657354

8 hours ago, Phil Davis said:

so your gratuitous slap at Italo Vecchi is a non sequitur

Prior to this EID MAR-incident I would have recommended Italo Vecchi, co-author of  a reference work on Italian cast coinage.
Dealing in coins is for a a large part built on trust, sometimes a handshake is sufficient even for large deals. I will not trust any person involved in this case.

Regards and have a nice Sunday
Klaus

Edited October 6, 2024 by Dwarf
grammar

[sand]

Hello @Zendi. Welcome to Nvmis Forvms.

I am pretty sure that any Aes Signatum is very valuable, if it can be proven to be authentic. Especially if the fragment is 50% or more of the original bar, or if it contains any of the devices/design, as your Aes Signatum does. Unfortunately, I don't have enough knowledge, of Aes Signata, to know if your Aes Signatum is authentic. I don't even know, who would be expert enough, to authenticate your Aes Signatum, or how they would authenticate it. Perhaps there are some persons, who would be able to authenticate your Aes Signatum. Maybe NGC Ancients. Maybe a high end auction house such as CNG. At least, they may be able to refer you to someone else, who may be able to authenticate your Aes Signatum. Or, they may be able to consult with experts, who may be able to authenticate your Aes Signatum.

The most expert Nvmis Forvms members, in the general area of Roman Republican bronze coins, of whom I am aware, are @Andrew McCabe and @rrdenarius. There may be others.

Do you have any other knowledge, about your Aes Signatum? From whom did your grandfather acquire the Aes Signatum? When did your grandfather acquire the Aes Signatum? Where did your grandfather acquire the Aes Signatum? Where, and how, was the Aes Signatum found in the ground? Was there any other archaeological evidence, at the site where the Aes Signatum was found?

To find the value of various Aes Signata, you can search for past auctions of Aes Signata. For example, you can search ACsearch, for "Aes Signatum", but you have to pay money to ACsearch to view the hammer prices. To view larger photos of the coins, you merely have to register for free, with your email address.

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?term="aes+signatum"&category=1-2&lot=&date_from=&date_to=&thesaurus=1&images=1&en=1&de=1&fr=1&it=1&es=1&ot=1&currency=usd&order=1 

Or, you can go to various auction web sites (CNG, etc), and search their past auctions for "Aes Signatum", which may show the hammer prices.

Edited October 6, 2024 by sand

[wuntbedruv]

20 hours ago, Phil Davis said:

As you presumably know, the issues surrounding the Eid Mar aureus had nothing at all to do with authenticity

Well, initially they didn't. That much is true.

[Zendi]

Thank you all for your replies. As I said, I am not a numismatist. I only know that the coin is made of bronze. Grandfather did material analysis 15/20 years ago. I know the coin is authentic. I will start looking for a buyer, whoever makes the highest offer, I will sell to that person.

[Phil Davis]

1 hour ago, wuntbedruv said:

Well, initially they didn't. That much is true.

Yes? Who is challenging the coin's authenticity?

[sand]

3 hours ago, Zendi said:

Thank you all for your replies. As I said, I am not a numismatist. I only know that the coin is made of bronze. Grandfather did material analysis 15/20 years ago. I know the coin is authentic. I will start looking for a buyer, whoever makes the highest offer, I will sell to that person.

1 option is to consign the Aes Signatum to a CNG auction, or consign it to another high end auction house. Another option, is to sell it to a Vcoins dealer, after asking various Vcoins dealers, what they would pay for your Aes Signatum. Or, you can try to sell it here, at Nvmis Forvms in "The Cabinet" section. If your Aes Signatum is authentic, then I'm guessing that, probably, you will get the most money for it, by consigning it to a CNG auction or other high end auction house.

[wuntbedruv]

8 hours ago, Phil Davis said:

Yes? Who is challenging the coin's authenticity?

I'm unwilling to comment too extensively on an ongoing case, but lets just say that there are some very big players and well-respected people/institutions who are doubtful. From my understanding, the basis of this doubt appears to be that the Roma coin seemingly shares an obverse die (IIRC) with another coin previously condemned as a 19th century forgery.

All shall be revealed in due course, I'm sure.

 

Edited October 7, 2024 by wuntbedruv

[Bonshaw]

@Zendi, I just noticed a somewhat smaller Aes Signatum for sale here, you might want to watch how it does.

Lot 204 - Aes Signatum. AE Currency Bar, Central Italy, - Artemide Aste

Auction Oct. 26-7

 

 

[Phil Davis]

2 hours ago, Bonshaw said:

@Zendi, I just noticed a somewhat smaller Aes Signatum for sale here, you might want to watch how it does.

Lot 204 - Aes Signatum. AE Currency Bar, Central Italy, - Artemide Aste

Auction Oct. 26-7

 

 

Certainly the upcoming Artemide piece is similar in a general sense, but it differs in more ways than simply size & weight. Most notably, the so-called ramo secco (dry branch) bars like the one you cite were cast in an undetermined region in central or northern Italy and are not products of the mint of Rome. Unquestionably, they're still rare and desirable, but they're considerably more available than are true Roman currency bars. The OP fragment, if authenticity can be determined, is an enormously important and valuable find, particularly as it would go some ways towards putting Crawford's doubts about the authenticity of the type to rest.

Edited October 19, 2024 by Phil Davis

[Glebe]

Before bidding on this currency bar I suggest that any sensible buyer would like to see:

1)     Some documentation confirming the circumstances of its finding

2)     An analysis of the alloy

3)     Examples of known bars (or cast coins) with a similar patina.

Bearing in mind that the rather distinctive hard black patina might make obtaining a true analysis difficult.

Incidentally what information do we have on the composition of currency bars?

Ross G.

Edited October 19, 2024 by Glebe

[Bonshaw]

This is a fascinating discussion!

[Glebe]

I searched 500 cast (aes grave) coins on acsearch and didn't find a definite matching patina.

On the other hand I feel I have seen this type of patina before, but where I can't recall.

Ross G.