Syracuse bronzes as a beginner

[Lovelyancientcoins]

Hey all, 

I am a roman and greek ancient coin collector and I tend to always stay with silvers coins. But just a few days ago this changed and I purchased 2 Syracuse bronzes.

What I am asking of all of you, is to be brutally honest with me and to tell me what you think about these coins. Have they been tooled / smoothed, is the patina fake or anything else you feel that I should know. You won't hurt my feelings, just tell me how it is.

Syracuse, Hieron II. v. 275/270-215 Chr., Æ ca. 274-269/265 v. Chr.

Obverse: ΣΥΡAKOΣIΩN, head of Persephone with wreath of ears of corn to the left. Reverse: bull thrusting to the left, above IA and club, in the section IE. 5.13 g. HGC: 1497. Dark green patina. Very fine

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Syracuse, Hieron II. v. 275/270-215 Chr., Æ ca. v. 240-215 Chr.

Obverse: diademed head to the left. Reverse: ΙΕΡΩΝΟΣ / N, armoured rider charging with lance to the right. 18.35 g. HGC 2: 1548. Fine style! Wonderful olive green patina. Very fine

 

Thanks all. 

 

 

 

 

 

[CPK]

Welcome to Numis Forums @Lovelyancientcoins!

The first coin looks fine to me. The second coin has a surprising amount of detail left in the hair, and some on the reverse figure too, but it doesn't look tooled to me.

There are plenty of folks here who have better eyes/experience with this though, hopefully they will weigh in as well.

[Deinomenid]

Assuming you know Sicilian bronzes can be an absolute minefield, I’d start by looking at some of the many known forgeries for similarities. The  Hieron piece is very often faked, sometimes very hard to tell as some were electrotyped initially. It’s been featured in the bulletins so you should be able to find it on forumancient etc. 

A good place to start is the edges. If they are smooth and practically the same width all the way round that’s a warning sign of huge help to getting the right answer.

On smoothing, you should be able to tell from looking at them carefully, but very many Sicilian bronzes are smoothed. Re tooling there’s a cynical argument that fairly low-value coins have less of it and -while the hair on the second coin is a slight concern-  I’d be more focused on whether the coins are genuine.

A good indicator of falseness is where they were purchased or where the seller got them too. There are a few notorious sources.

[Lovelyancientcoins]

Thank you both for taking a closer look!

I haven't received the coins in hand, so i'll just have to wait until it arrives.

after doing some research on electrotyped fakes, thanks to Deinomenid, I found this website https://www.calgarycoin.com/reference/fakes/electro.htm 

Just like you said, the edge is an important place to start. I'll also do some research on known fakes of these types, and maybe there will be a die match.

[JAZ Numismatics]

They look natural to me, no obvious evidence of alteration.

[shanxi]

16 hours ago, CPK said:

The second coin has a surprising amount of detail left in the hair,

Yes, normally you can see wear at the highest points and little in the lower areas. Here it is the other way round.

A typical "worn"" Hieron example.

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=10675713

[JAZ Numismatics]

1 hour ago, shanxi said:

Yes, normally you can see wear at the highest points and little in the lower areas. Here it is the other way round.

A typical "worn"" Hieron example.

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=10675713

 

Certain Syracusan issues were very masterfully and finely engraved, and extremely well-struck - to the point that they can look tooled, if not altogether fake, especially if they haven't circulated much. An example is this coin of Hiketas II...

 

SICILY. Syracuse.
Hiketas II. 287-278 BC.
AE25, 9.7g, 12h; struck c. 283-279 BC.
Obv.: Laureate head of Zeus Hellanios right.
Rev.: Eagle standing left on thunderbolt, wings displayed.
Reference: HGC 2, 1449 (p. 376).

If you search the usual databases, CNG, CoinArchives, ACSearch, you'll find quite a few of these particular issues in very sharp, clean grades. There must have been a hoard of uncirculated coins - something like the Randall Hoard of US Large Cents. They were struck, put in an urn, and promptly buried and forgotten for 23 centuries. So other than the patina, they look pretty much brand new after a light cleaning.

If you pursue the coins of Syracuse, you'll find that the engravers of the bronzes often put as much care and artistry into their creations as the famous engravers of the the silver tetradrachms. Also, I encourage you to get the absolutely indispensable Handbook of Coins of Sicily by Oliver D. Hoover, published by CNG. Some of the best bedtime reading you'll ever encounter.

[JAZ Numismatics]

Another nice little bit of Syracusan eye candy, Litra of Agathokles with an unusually nice lion...

SICILY. Syracuse.

AE Litra, 21mm, 9.5g.

Time of Agathokles, 317-289 BC.

Obv.: ΣVRΑΚΟΣΙΟΝ; Diademed bust of Heracles left.

Rev.: Lion advancing right, club above; arrow to right in exergue.

Ref.: SNG Cop 767; SNG ANS 740. 

[Lelouch]

There are truly some legendary Syracusan Bronzes.

Not my coin (lol I wish), but the one below sold for 46000 CHF at NAC Auction 138, lot 345. Absolutely gorgeous, the eyes and lips are incredibly detailed. Undoubtedly the finest specimen, likely unsigned work of Exakestidas according to NAC and Artemide Aste previously.

On a side note I don't think NAC has the date right, and they also don't attribute it to Arethusa?. NAC says "Tetras circa 390, Æ 1.74 g. Female head, wearing ampyx, facing slightly l., hair floating freely. Rev. Octopus. SNG Copenhagen 679. C. Boehringer, Essays Thompson pl. 39, 26. SNG München 1107. AMB 491. Calciati 29."
390 BC does not make sense.

Previously it sold at Artemide Aste, Auction LVI, Lot 120 as "Sicily. Syracuse. Dionysios I (405-367 BC). AE Tetras, c. 405 BC. Obv. Facing head of Arethusa slightly left, wearing necklace. Rev. Octopus. HGC 2 1432; CNS II 29; SNG ANS 385; SNG Cop. 679; Boehringer pl. 39,26. AE. 1.74 g. 9.00 mm"

The Artemide Aste date makes a lot more sense, especially because NAC says in their description as well "According Calciati the model for the head on the obverse is derived from the facing head of Arethusa by Kimon. This issue is usually attributed to Exakestidas because there are several specimens signed E or Ex. Exakestidas was a Sicilian engraver, active at the end of the V century BC, who signed tetradrachms and didrachms of Camarina".

The end of the V century BC is not 390 BCE. V Century is from 500 BCE to 401 BCE, and 390 is just not within that range. And you can see as well on acsearch "signed by Exakestidas" generally everyone does give the Exakestidas signed coins a date of somewhere around 425-405, including NAC themself in other listings.
And Calciati says 410 BC.

I don't have HGC 2 Sicily (have been looking for it since the beginning of this year), but the latest citation of this type should be HGC 2 1432 and it should be 405 BC as well. NAC removed the HGC 2 1432 citation which was in the Artemide Aste description from their coin. Seems a bit weird as that is that the most recent and likely useful for collectors.

So yeah rant over, just surprising to me that NAC changed the date for seemingly no reason on such an expensive coin, and the information in their own description does not agree with them. They could have just based it on the old description or literally any of other of this type.

 

[Brennos]

@Lelouch The most in-depth recent studies on the subject (W. Fischer-Bossert and S. Maltese) place the very first facing Arethusa tetradrachms of Kimon in 405, which gives a terminus post quem. 

The terminus ante quem is probably the issue date of the bronze drachma head of Athena/star between two dolphins. If we assume that the minting of this coin was concomitant with the cessation of the minting of the tetradrachms, then we have a date around 395.

@Lovelyancientcoins There's absolutely nothing suspicious about your coins, and in my opinion as a sicilian bronze collector, they've been very well cleaned.

Edited October 3, 2024 by Brennos

[Deinomenid]

3 hours ago, Lelouch said:

I don't have HGC 2 Sicily