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Divo Claudio - unlisted reverse type?


Barzus
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Hello All!

I acquired a DIVO CLAUDIO coin a few years ago, that is still puzzling me today. The CONSECRATIO reverse depicts an altar, which seems to be decorated with an eagle inside... The style looks official, and typical from Rome mint, and both altar and eagle are common attributes to consecration coins. However, I never found any record of this type, and never got to see any other specimen...

So, my questions to you:

- Do you also see an eagle on the reverse, or is it only my dreamer's eyes that see it?

- Do you think this coin is an official issue, or a barbaric imitation?

- Do you know any reference/record/other specimen of this type for Divus Claudius?

Thank you very much for your help 🙂

Barzus

Divo Claudio_eagle in altar.png

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Welcome.

Yes I see the eagle. It's not the usual 4 dot panel or crescent, anyway. It's interesting because some CONSECRATIOs have an eagle, others have an altar. I don't think it's barbarous. Hopefully an expert will know if others exist!

Edited by John Conduitt
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I like these CONSECRATIO issues and tend to remember interesting variations and look for examples myself. Some years ago I remember seeing a post on FORVM about a Claudius II altar coin with an eagle. At the time, I thought it was pretty cool and have since been on the lookout for one. So seeing your post, I went to FORVM to find that example and… that old example (from a 2015 post) is your coin! So… all these years later you still have some unanswered questions and must not have found many or any similar examples. Glad you have a coin to keep you intrigued in little mysteries! A great coin. I’m still looking for one.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=103563.msg636828#msg636828

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9 hours ago, Orange Julius said:

I like these CONSECRATIO issues and tend to remember interesting variations and look for examples myself. Some years ago I remember seeing a post on FORVM about a Claudius II altar coin with an eagle. At the time, I thought it was pretty cool and have since been on the lookout for one. So seeing your post, I went to FORVM to find that example and… that old example (from a 2015 post) is your coin! So… all these years later you still have some unanswered questions and must not have found many or any similar examples. Glad you have a coin to keep you intrigued in little mysteries! A great coin. I’m still looking for one.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=103563.msg636828#msg636828

Hi Julius,

You are right, it s been some years that I am trying to find out more about this coin. I actually completel forgot about this post on FAC 🙂

I think I ll just have to accept that it is a new type, with no other specimen known up to now.

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This is what I call a mysterious coin. As mentioned above, knowing the size and weight could give us a clue as to its authenticity

It is obvious that the DIVO CLAUDIO / CONSECRATIO issues were imitated on an enormous scale. For example, in many hoards ( like the Normanby), the imitations out numbered the official specimens. The regular issues are also very difficult to distinguish from the imitations in many cases. The official types similar to yours are: garlanded altar and altar divided into four sections. Bastien and Pflaum have subdivided the pieces at the altar into several categories, even if they are most likely interpretations of the same type by different engravers. 

Many consecration coins of Claudius II also come from local Gaulish mints. Some present totally incoherent legends, others flagrant spelling errors. On the other hand, there are specimens that combine the variant with garland and the one with four compartments, and we can even find examples with « unidentified objects » into the altar…

41D3601E-6ECB-426F-A0F0-857B99C0714C.jpeg.0e932294cfbdd2893e6279fadb075245.jpeg

It is interesting to know that coins of good style belonging to this series have also been considered as the product of a more or less clandestine and certainly fraudulent activity of some Roman engravers, so maybe it’s the case here, which could explain the « official » style.

It is also a possibility that your coin is a new unknown type. The main problem with this theory is the fact that these CONSECRATIO issues specimens have been  produced in industrial quantities and are also very commonly found, both in individual discoveries and in those of monetary treasures. So it would be very surprising if a new type had been minted and very few or even a single specimen had been unearthed so far, but we never know ! One thing is certain, it is that this piece seems to be unique and extremely interesting for any collector of this era of the Roman Empire. Thanks for sharing.

 

 

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On 7/29/2022 at 2:49 AM, Barzus said:

Hi Julius,

You are right, it s been some years that I am trying to find out more about this coin. I actually completel forgot about this post on FAC 🙂

I think I ll just have to accept that it is a new type, with no other specimen known up to now.

That I still specifically remember your coin from a post I saw in 2015… is a complement! There’s not many coins that I specifically remember that long that aren’t mine. Still on the lookout!

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14 hours ago, Ocatarinetabellatchitchix said:

This is what I call a mysterious coin. As mentioned above, knowing the size and weight could give us a clue as to its authenticity

It is obvious that the DIVO CLAUDIO / CONSECRATIO issues were imitated on an enormous scale. For example, in many hoards ( like the Normanby), the imitations out numbered the official specimens. The regular issues are also very difficult to distinguish from the imitations in many cases. The official types similar to yours are: garlanded altar and altar divided into four sections. Bastien and Pflaum have subdivided the pieces at the altar into several categories, even if they are most likely interpretations of the same type by different engravers. 

Many consecration coins of Claudius II also come from local Gaulish mints. Some present totally incoherent legends, others flagrant spelling errors. On the other hand, there are specimens that combine the variant with garland and the one with four compartments, and we can even find examples with « unidentified objects » into the altar…

41D3601E-6ECB-426F-A0F0-857B99C0714C.jpeg.0e932294cfbdd2893e6279fadb075245.jpeg

It is interesting to know that coins of good style belonging to this series have also been considered as the product of a more or less clandestine and certainly fraudulent activity of some Roman engravers, so maybe it’s the case here, which could explain the « official » style.

It is also a possibility that your coin is a new unknown type. The main problem with this theory is the fact that these CONSECRATIO issues specimens have been  produced in industrial quantities and are also very commonly found, both in individual discoveries and in those of monetary treasures. So it would be very surprising if a new type had been minted and very few or even a single specimen had been unearthed so far, but we never know ! One thing is certain, it is that this piece seems to be unique and extremely interesting for any collector of this era of the Roman Empire. Thanks for sharing.

 

 

Great, thanks for your answer @Ocatarinetabellatchitchix.

I tend to agree with the last part of your answer. Knowing the industrial scale of these emissions, it seems (too) extraordinary to find a new type represented by only one specimen! 
 

ill get the weight and diameter when I can, to feed this interesting discussion 🙂

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19 hours ago, Ocatarinetabellatchitchix said:

This is what I call a mysterious coin. As mentioned above, knowing the size and weight could give us a clue as to its authenticity

It is obvious that the DIVO CLAUDIO / CONSECRATIO issues were imitated on an enormous scale. For example, in many hoards ( like the Normanby), the imitations out numbered the official specimens. The regular issues are also very difficult to distinguish from the imitations in many cases. The official types similar to yours are: garlanded altar and altar divided into four sections. Bastien and Pflaum have subdivided the pieces at the altar into several categories, even if they are most likely interpretations of the same type by different engravers. 

Many consecration coins of Claudius II also come from local Gaulish mints. Some present totally incoherent legends, others flagrant spelling errors. On the other hand, there are specimens that combine the variant with garland and the one with four compartments, and we can even find examples with « unidentified objects » into the altar…

41D3601E-6ECB-426F-A0F0-857B99C0714C.jpeg.0e932294cfbdd2893e6279fadb075245.jpeg

It is interesting to know that coins of good style belonging to this series have also been considered as the product of a more or less clandestine and certainly fraudulent activity of some Roman engravers, so maybe it’s the case here, which could explain the « official » style.

It is also a possibility that your coin is a new unknown type. The main problem with this theory is the fact that these CONSECRATIO issues specimens have been  produced in industrial quantities and are also very commonly found, both in individual discoveries and in those of monetary treasures. So it would be very surprising if a new type had been minted and very few or even a single specimen had been unearthed so far, but we never know ! One thing is certain, it is that this piece seems to be unique and extremely interesting for any collector of this era of the Roman Empire. Thanks for sharing.

 

 

 

19 hours ago, Ocatarinetabellatchitchix said:

Thanks for sharing.

 

 

Welcome to the forum, @Ocatarinetabellatchitchix  !

Great to see that you've signed on.

— Ray (aka LONGINUS, aka Deacon Ray)

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  • 3 weeks later...
3 hours ago, Barzus said:

@DLTcoins and @Ocatarinetabellatchitchix, as requested (and a bit late :D): diameter: 18/19mm, weight: 2.18g.

The weight is very low. I checked ~100 coins from this series at CNG and on the RIC V database. I found only two equal or lower, one 2.17 and another 2.14. I lean slightly toward unofficial but reasoned arguments can be made for either case.

Edited by DLTcoins
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