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Questions or maybe suspicions over an early Gela didrachm for sale

Deinomenid

By Deinomenid
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Deinomenid Grand Master

Deinomenid

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Posted (edited)

I don't really know much about the Coin Cabinet auctions, but have seen some curious Greek coins for sale so far, including a couple of apparently rare ones that went for low prices, so the curiosity is not mine alone. I thought I'd  mention at least one in the current  premium sale, just to highlight the differences to what the coin should possibly be, but also to see where I may be  going wrong. As ever, who knows for sure, but as this house was  possibly selling Roma unsolds and some collection called Euclidean that may be both extremely new and linked to the above  I was a little more alert to description accuracy etc...

One coin is a rare and very early Gela didrachm, which can sell for  over $20,000. Here it has a starting  price of 2k sterling just for what it is worth. This is the coin.

https://auctions.thecoincabinet.com/lots/view/4-EKP868/sicily-gela-ar-didrachm

edit the seller has removed the  link, without explanation. Another Orwellian memory hole uncoin.

Screenshot2024-09-09at17-21-03SicilyGelaARDidrachmTheCoinCabinetAuctions.png.fc11843ac68c057613c4e1c5c17616f4.png

The description shows  it as the same dies as  Kraay-Hirmer,  155, which I happen to have here -

 

j555.jpg.af840bb7e746c8366402af7dd80b6a28.jpgy6y65555.jpg.adc7a303fbc33ff5600626454a506ca7.jpg

 

In my  opinion there are  substantial unexplained differences between them.

A few examples :

1)  Obverse tail is  different, especially in length and tapering

2)  The line (fault?) from the top of the rein  up through the spear which is apparent on a number of examples is in this case "wobbly". Why would that be, if a fault or (remotely) a design.

3) The G ("C") of Gela on the reverse of the examples I know  is curved. In the coin being sold it is angled in the middle.

4) The A of Gela is also a quite different shape, with a long left side in the one for sale, which is not apparent in for example those of Kraay-Hirmer, or NAC , Triton, or Morton and Eden etc.

5) The beard tips are very different too, as in on the other 4 coins they are consistent.

6) The "dent" at 4 o'clock on the reverse is highly unusual. Jenkins has 6 plates, each of 18 coins, showing these early didrachms and  only one coin of the 100 plus has anything like  it. It could  of course be just an unusual thing.

I'd be interested in opinions  on it. I suppose it could be a different  coin, and it is just mislabeled but there really aren't many of this specific type (many have a different  head/helmet which eliminates them.)

For completeness here are the  Morton, G&M  and  Triton (described as  FDC) coins -

 

image00095gg.jpg.48f5f15e48af413c6bdcaf8fd725c4ab.jpg

 

image00071de.jpg.187aa00d0f5bf70a1b6cc2315769b93b.jpg

image00153bb.jpg.13bc8500bed9d130e4b3c49415143968.jpg

 

Edited by Deinomenid
"Oddly" the seller has removed the link, without explanation. Another Orwellian memory hole uncoin.
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kirispupis Grand Master

kirispupis

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I purchased one coin from Coin Cabinet. They were fine to deal with. The only slightly odd thing was they only accepted payment via bank transfer (no PayPal or credit cards). My understanding is they hired a number of the Roma personnel and acquired a good portion of their inventory. Therefore, I understand the "Euclidean Collection" to be those coins obtained from Roma, but I may be mistaken.

My coin had been previously sold in 2015 and from I've researched, that looks to be correct. Here's the previous sale.

As for the Gela coin, I'm not a good judge, but your observations appear correct to me, though it seems possible that the coin was considerably worn and then overcleaned. Could it have been tooled? I'm really not sure. A verifiable pedigree certainly would be nice.

853_Full.jpg.67049e5de1cda66ec3222797d413c9af.jpg

Kingdom of Illyria, Monounios
Dyrrhachion
Circa 305-275 BCE
AR stater 21mm 10.57g 5h
Obv: cow standing left, looking back at suckling calf standing right below; monogram above.
Rev: double stellate pattern divided by line, all in double linear square border; ΔYP (P retrograde) and club around; all within linear circle border.
Paškvan-; Maier 34 var. (same); Meadows, CH (forthcoming) 193; SNG Copenhagen-425 var. (orientation of obv.); BMC-29 var. (same).
ex Classical Numismatic Group 2015

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Curtisimo Grand Master

Curtisimo

Posted · Supporter
Posted

Very interesting observations @Deinomenid. If this is a fake then the forgers have taken some care in the details. The surface scratches look pretty consistent with cleaning scratches. This is a coin that would be great to examine in-hand. The surface looks like it has deposits of some kind, possibly under the tone?

The tail and beard really don’t look too off to me. The die flaw might be explainable as dings and wear giving a wavy impression. I can see what you mean by the G(C) though. The Coin Cabinet example looks like it is at a later die state. I wonder if the engravers ever reworked their original dies to make them last a bit longer?

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Agricantus Enthusiast

Agricantus

Posted · Member
Posted

Nice sleuthing work! I am not used to seeing so many high grade horsemen, since I look mostly at second tier, electric auctions. Even the little dimple is present everywhere, besides the other faults. 

IMG_5129.jpeg.81ed6c09916202cfbf8cf5246b177f83.jpeg

One of my low grade Gela samples:

IMG_5128.jpeg.597fc410072bd6ad24fb1f16b6f148be.jpeg

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Dwarf Community Regular

Dwarf

Posted · Member
Posted

I cannot prove anything on genuine or forgery.
The dies are definitely the same, but the overall appearance is different. Everything looks "thinner", rider and horse seem to have done many workouts lately.
I would not touch this coin - especially as coming from this auction house. Too many tampered-with-coins in their auctions, many without appropriate descriptions.
 

Regards
Klaus

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ajax Contributor

ajax

Posted · Member
Posted
21 hours ago, Deinomenid said:

I don't really know much about the Coin Cabinet auctions, but have seen some curious Greek coins for sale so far, including a couple of apparently rare ones that went for low prices, so the curiosity is not mine alone. I thought I'd  mention at least one in the current  premium sale, just to highlight the differences to what the coin should possibly be, but also to see where I may be  going wrong. As ever, who knows for sure, but as this house was  possibly selling Roma unsolds and some collection called Euclidean that may be both extremely new and linked to the above  I was a little more alert to description accuracy etc...

One coin is a rare and very early Gela didrachm, which can sell for  over $20,000. Here it has a starting  price of 2k sterling just for what it is worth. This is the coin.

https://auctions.thecoincabinet.com/lots/view/4-EKP868/sicily-gela-ar-didrachm

Screenshot2024-09-09at17-21-03SicilyGelaARDidrachmTheCoinCabinetAuctions.png.fc11843ac68c057613c4e1c5c17616f4.png

The description shows  it as the same dies as  Kraay-Hirmer,  155, which I happen to have here -

 

j555.jpg.af840bb7e746c8366402af7dd80b6a28.jpgy6y65555.jpg.adc7a303fbc33ff5600626454a506ca7.jpg

 

In my  opinion there are  substantial unexplained differences between them.

A few examples :

1)  Obverse tail is  different, especially in length and tapering

2)  The line (fault?) from the top of the rein  up through the spear which is apparent on a number of examples is in this case "wobbly". Why would that be, if a fault or (remotely) a design.

3) The G ("C") of Gela on the reverse of the examples I know  is curved. In the coin being sold it is angled in the middle.

4) The A of Gela is also a quite different shape, with a long left side in the one for sale, which is not apparent in for example those of Kraay-Hirmer, or NAC , Triton, or Morton and Eden etc.

5) The beard tips are very different too, as in on the other 4 coins they are consistent.

6) The "dent" at 4 o'clock on the reverse is highly unusual. Jenkins has 6 plates, each of 18 coins, showing these early didrachms and  only one coin of the 100 plus has anything like  it. It could  of course be just an unusual thing.

I'd be interested in opinions  on it. I suppose it could be a different  coin, and it is just mislabeled but there really aren't many of this specific type (many have a different  head/helmet which eliminates them.)

For completeness here are the  Morton, G&M  and  Triton (described as  FDC) coins -

 

image00095gg.jpg.48f5f15e48af413c6bdcaf8fd725c4ab.jpg

 

image00071de.jpg.187aa00d0f5bf70a1b6cc2315769b93b.jpg

image00153bb.jpg.13bc8500bed9d130e4b3c49415143968.jpg

 

Guaranteed 100% fake, its sibling sold in the fine (f)arts auction 

 

gela.jpg

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Dwarf Community Regular

Dwarf

Posted · Member
Posted
13 minutes ago, ajax said:

@Dwarf maybe you could ask loli-dinx-amentia to do a more elaborate search 

I will try - but at the moment he seems to stick to the German forum and is scanning the upcoming NAC auction - a disgrace for a renowned company

Regards
Klaus

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El Cazador Mentor

El Cazador

Posted · Member
Posted
3 minutes ago, Dwarf said:

I will try - but at the moment he seems to stick to the German forum and is scanning the upcoming NAC auction - a disgrace for a renowned company

Regards
Klaus

What’s going on with new NAC, can you elaborate?

Deinomenid Grand Master

Deinomenid

Posted · Supporter
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Posted
39 minutes ago, El Cazador said:

Can you elaborate on which lots specifically 

Oh,  just eyeballing some very strange ones, but @Dwarf's link is probably the best place to start. I just don't understand why they'd do it. Literally from that thread it's a Robert Ready STAMPED coin they are trying to pass off as real. There are more. (And more discussed there.)

El Cazador Mentor

El Cazador

Posted · Member
Posted
9 minutes ago, Deinomenid said:

Oh,  just eyeballing some very strange ones, but @Dwarf's link is probably the best place to start. I just don't understand why they'd do it. Literally from that thread it's a Robert Ready STAMPED coin they are trying to pass off as real. There are more. (And more discussed there.)

Sorry, can you reshare the link

Deinomenid Grand Master

Deinomenid

Posted · Supporter
  • Author
Posted
1 hour ago, ajax said:

And I rest my case with this

Case closed.

I can't believe I missed that!! I see what they did - they moved the bull to the left to  "hide" the sigma that shouldn't be there and moved the rider to the right, and practically drew on a tail. Jenkins 4, not 8 - I can't see the wood for the trees.  Early 1990's fake therefore likely.

unnamedjry.jpg.e4c06a143a79b321b4db3da8c9ae1a0a.jpg

 

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