Attempt to sell Roman silver ingots on the black market

[Roman Collector]

A man allegedly tried to illegally sell three rare Roman-era silver ingots that his great-grandmother reportedly found in her garden years ago.

Edited August 26, 2024 by Roman Collector

[hotwheelsearl]

Someone I feel like you get more money selling these things legally 

[Rand]

14 hours ago, hotwheelsearl said:

Someone I feel like you get more money selling these things legally 

Nope. From what I understand, chance finds in Ukraine, Russia, Belarus, and some other countries generally follow the Soviet-era laws that everything must be handed over to the state with a fraction of the value (e.g., 25%) to be paid to the finder. The value of the ingots could be estimated by silver bullion value, meaning very little. Also, the state may believe that the best parts were retained and start investigations. The story of the grandmother is not convincing, and if metal detectorists made the find, it may be completely illegal.

In this case, the museum's vigilance is commendable, but I fear the bulk of Ukrainian coin finds is sold illegally. I can trace Soviet-era finds from Ukraine in museums, often in Russia, and publications (e.g., by Kropotkin). I cannot find records of many recent finds, which must have been numerous during the metal detection era. 

If there are collectors on the forum familiar with the current legislation in Ukraine, it would be interesting to know. 

Thank you sharing this info @Roman Collector

 

Edited August 26, 2024 by Rand
a type fixed. apologies for all my typos

[Heliodromus]

8 hours ago, Rand said:

In this case, the museum's vigilance is commendable, but I fear the bulk of Ukrainian coin finds is sold illegally. I can trace Soviet-era finds from Ukraine in museums, often in Russia, and publications (e.g., by Kropotkin). I cannot find records of many recent finds, which must have been numerous during the metal detection error. 

I don't know what Ukrainian law currently is, but it's notable that the "Ukrainian eBay" site Violity has openly hosted Roman coin sales for years, many of which are clearly fresh finds (sometimes accompanied by photos including a metal detector, or muddy hand holding coin up against backdrop of a plowed field!), and it would seem there's been no attempt to shut this down. Perhaps, like the UK, there are different laws applicable to individual finds vs hoards?

One interesting part of Violity is the Community board, where many fresh finds are shown for authentication and pricing, with some then subsequently appearing for sale. This Community board is frequented by someone evidentially quite expert in identification and authentication, who tirelessly answers these questions. Notably one of the above ingots first appeared on this Community board, where the expert immediately pronounced it fake, despite perhaps realizing it was genuine (they are all stamped with clearly official solidus dies)...

It is a shame that so many recent finds are unavailable for study, although I'm personally all for laws that allow finders to keep anything not of national importance. One class of coins that one sees on Violity are the interesting pierced aureus imitations that are characteristic of the Barbaricum, and rarely seen elsewhere.

If anyone is familiar with the law, in addition to the question of whether Ukranian law allows finders to keep/sell coins, I'm curious if the US currently allows coins to be imported from the Ukraine?

 

Edited August 26, 2024 by Heliodromus

[Sulla80]

1 hour ago, Heliodromus said:

It is a shame that so many recent finds are unavailable for study, although I'm personally all for laws that allow finders to keep anything not of national importance.

Reading threads like this I am always left with that sense that better laws - perhaps more like the UK - can benefit all sides of the equation: finders, academic research, collectors and the general public.

[Ocatarinetabellatchitchix]

https://inconsulting.com.ua/en/examination-of-antiques/import-and-export-of-cultural-property.html

[Rand]

Thank you, @Ocatarinetabellatchitchix. This is more or less as I expected. 

• rare coins, orders, medals, seals and other collectibles come under the definition of cultural property. The definition of 'rare' is not provided in the article, but likely to include all antique coins in silver or gold. The procedures needed for export are complicated and are unlikely to be followed by typical Violity sellers/buyers.

Other two points of note are:

• moving across the customs border of Ukraine outside customs control or with concealment from customs control of cultural property is punishable by imprisonment for a term of 3 to 7 years with confiscation of contraband items, and

 

• subject to return to Ukraine: cultural values illegally exported from the territory of Ukraine;

These points mean that any items bought throught Violity or other sellers in Ukraine, that do not follow the procedure are considered stolen. Sooner or later the Ukraine state would be after them, if of value. It is almost certain that any cultural property objects sold through Violity have a 'digital trace'.

I would not dare to buy from Ukraine unless there is valid export certificate.