Severus Alexander Posted June 12, 2022 · Supporter Share Posted June 12, 2022 (edited) On 6/12/2022 at 9:29 AM, BBA said: My personal favorite Justinian type (and probably the favorite coin of my entire collection): Justinian Ae Decanummium, Carthage mint (18.mm, 3.5gms) Obv: Bust of Justinian right with Christogram on breast Rev: Large I between two stars, cross above; KART in exergue Great coin!! It seems to be a very scarce type... do you know the date of issue? is it from immediately following the reconquest? I have a Carthage pentanummium that is somewhat similar, though much more common and without the awesome chi-rho on his breast. I think Justinian looks cute on these: I also have a great fondness for the cartoonish art we sometimes see from the late 6th and early 7th centuries at Cyzicus and Nicomedia. There's something incredibly appealing about these to me! Some samples: Mournful Maurice from Cyzicus, year 8 (I feel so sorry for him!! 😭) : Heraclius year 1 Nicomedia (aka Hagar the Horrible is ticked!) : Heraclius year 2, Cyzicus ("ski goggles Heraclius") : I think this goggles-style from Cyzicus is hilarious (maybe derived from the Maurice style above?) and recently got this year 3 half to complement my full follis: At that high grade I do indeed find this coin to be truly beautiful! Go figure. Edited July 14, 2022 by Severus Alexander replaced huge file with smaller one 16 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quant.geek Posted June 13, 2022 · Member Share Posted June 13, 2022 10 hours ago, kevikens said: I had always thought that the Venetians had appropriated this design from the Byzantines until recently when I made a purchase of a few of these coins and only then realized that it was the Byzantines who copied the Grosso of Venice, not the Venetians appropriating the Baslikon for their use. The story is much more complicated. The design for the Venetian Grosso is based on Byzantine aspron, such as John II electrum aspron (not my coin). See Stahl's book Zecca: The Mint of Venice in the Middle Ages for more information... Then the Byzantines copied the Grosso for their Baslion as well as other eastern Christendom... and the original grosso: 18 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furryfrog02 Posted June 13, 2022 · Supporter Author Share Posted June 13, 2022 Interesting! That's a first heard for me! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quant.geek Posted June 13, 2022 · Member Share Posted June 13, 2022 1 minute ago, Furryfrog02 said: Interesting! That's a first heard for me! From Alan M. Stahl's book: "The imagery of the grosso was a great departure from earlier Venetian coins and from those of other northern Italian mints. The most complex image on the earlier coins was the diminutive facing head of Saint Mark on the pennies in the name of the emperor Henry and of Vitale Michiel II. On the grosso the obverse contains a scene with full-length figures of the doge and Saint Mark holding a standard between them and on the reverse a seated figure of Christ. Although there are parallels to this depiction on twelfth-century seals of Venice, the clear source for it is from Byzantine coins, specifically the electrum aspron trachy of the twelfth century. The most significant differences between the Venetian grosso and the Byzantine aspron are that the grosso was of pure silver rather than a gold-silver alloy and that the Venetian coin was flat, unlike the Byzantine one, which was cup shaped. Unlike Byzantine coins, and many contemporary European ones, the edge of the design for the grosso had a beaded ring that was usually lined up with the edge of the flan. This would make any clipping of the coin while in circulation evident and allow the coins to be used by count in transactions rather than having to be weighed." 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severus Alexander Posted June 13, 2022 · Supporter Share Posted June 13, 2022 13 minutes ago, quant.geek said: The story is much more complicated. The design for the Venetian Grosso is based on Byzantine aspron, such as John II electrum aspron (not my coin). See Stahl's book Zecca: The Mint of Venice in the Middle Ages for more information... Then the Byzantines copied the Grosso for their Baslion as well as other eastern Christendom... and the original grosso: I think Thomas Madden confirms this account in Venice: A New History. (Great book!) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quant.geek Posted June 13, 2022 · Member Share Posted June 13, 2022 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Severus Alexander said: I think Thomas Madden confirms this account in Venice: A New History. (Great book!) From Madden's book: "They issued the grosso, the first high-value coin minted in western Europe in more than five centuries. The grosso weighed about 2.2 grams and had the purest silver content that medieval technology could produce: about 98.5 percent fine. The design of the coin left no question that it was meant to replace Byzantine coins as a medium of international trade. The Byzantine aspron trachy was struck with an emperor and a saint both grasping a cross or a labarum on the front and an enthroned Christ on the back. In clear imitation, Dandolo’s grosso depicted himself and St. Mark grasping the banner of St. Mark on one side with Christ enthroned on the reverse." Edited June 13, 2022 by quant.geek 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBA Posted June 13, 2022 · Member Share Posted June 13, 2022 58 minutes ago, Severus Alexander said: Great coin!! It seems to be a very scarce type... do you know the date of issue? is it from immediately following the reconquest? I have a Carthage pentanummium that is somewhat similar, though much more common and without the awesome chi-rho on his breast. I think Justinian looks cute on these: I found the coin at a show probably 20 years ago, and it's still the only one I've ever seen (and I collect Justinian coins so I'm always looking at auctions). Can't determine when it was struck as it's not a dated issue. There's also a follis with the chi-rho on the breast which is also tough but slightly more common than this one. Note that Justinian struck a whole lot of coins and many are nearly impossible to find, even when Sear Byzantine implies they are somewhat common when looking at their assigned dollar value. BTW, it's kind of weird the authors decided to assign a dollar value to coins instead of a rarity designation. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeandAcre Posted June 13, 2022 · Member Share Posted June 13, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, quant.geek said: The story is much more complicated. The design for the Venetian Grosso is based on Byzantine aspron, such as John II electrum aspron (not my coin). See Stahl's book Zecca: The Mint of Venice in the Middle Ages for more information... Then the Byzantines copied the Grosso for their Baslion as well as other eastern Christendom... and the original grosso: Thanks, @quant.geek, for your remarkably comprehensive account of the dynamics between Venetian and Byzantine issues, including the late, c. 13th-c. Byzantine ones effectively coming full circle, by way of the Venetian ones. ...But it gets even better. In the mid-13th century, Hetoum of Cilician Armenia is imitating the more immediate precedent of the Venetian grossos, in the issue celebrating his marriage to Zabel (/Elizabeth). ...And you can compare the modules of all three issues to Ayyubid dirhams (cf. Armenian trams), c. later 12th-earlier 13th c. CE. (I don't have pics of mine, and am lifting one from CoinArchives: https://www.coinarchives.com/w/lotviewer.php?LotID=5711363&AucID=6487&Lot=550&Val=6912f76d15e02b00f38c8013c2591060.) Hetoum I AD 1226-1270. Sis Tram AR 21 mm, 2,94 g Zabel and Hetoum standing facing, holding long cross between; pellet on shaft / Crowned lion right; long cross behind.The net total of dynamics isn't even necessarily reducible to a binary dialectic between Venice and Byzantium, complex as that is in its own right. Edited June 13, 2022 by JeandAcre The ubiquitous typos.... 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevikens Posted June 13, 2022 · Member Share Posted June 13, 2022 13 hours ago, quant.geek said: The story is much more complicated. The design for the Venetian Grosso is based on Byzantine aspron, such as John II electrum aspron (not my coin). See Stahl's book Zecca: The Mint of Venice in the Middle Ages for more information... Then the Byzantines copied the Grosso for their Baslion as well as other eastern Christendom... and the original grosso: Yes, I can clearly see the earlier design. Since Venice had at one time been a Byzantine outpost. perhaps there still was a numismatic influence in effect. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor Steve Posted June 13, 2022 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted June 13, 2022 (edited) Sweet!! ... those are some amazing Byzantine examples, gang ... I had several cool types (NOTE: I will update the coin-info when I get a chance ... I'm busy-byzy at the moment) => please enjoy my coin-randomness!! Justinian I AE Follis (below) Date: Year 32 (558-559 AD) Diameter: 30.7 mm Weight: 17.3 gr Obverse: Helmeted and cuirassed bust of Justinian I, holding globus cruciger and shield Reverse: Large M Ex-stevx6 Justin II AE Pentanummium (below) 565-578 AD Diameter: 14.7 mm Weight: 1.9 grams Obverse: Monogram Reverse: Large E; K right (Cyzique Mint) Ex-stevex6 Maurice Tiberius Æ Follis (below) Theoupolis (Antioch) mint 582-602, Dated RY 9 (590/1) Diameter: 28 mm Weight: 11.34 grams Obverse: Crowned facing bust, wearing consular robes, holding mappa and eagle-tipped scepter Reverse: Large m; cross above, A/N/N/O Ч/IIII; τHЄЧP’ Reference: DOC 160; MIBE 95Ab (Arditarion from CNG later corrected this and stated that it is actually a 95Cb); SB 532 Other: 6h … brown patina Ex-stevex6 Byzantine Empire, Sassanian occupation of Egypt Æ 12 Nummi / Khusro II (below)Date: Circa 618-628 AD Measure: 19.66 mm Weight: 8.26 grams Obverse: Cuirassed bust of Khusro facing, wearing crown with simple cross, star to left, C to right Reverse: Cross on globe between I-B, AΛEΣ in exergue Attribution: DOC 191; SB 855 Notes: A very nice example of this scarcer type Ex-stevex6 Heraclius. Æ follies (Countermarks) - below 610-641 AD ca. 616/7-621/2 Sicilian mint Diameter: 29 mm Weight: 12.77 grams Obverse: Crowned bust of Heraclius facing; to right, monogram; all within circular incuse Reverse: SCLs within circular incuse Reference: DOC 241b; MIB Km 4; SB 882 Other: Brown patina. Overstruck on a follis of Justin I from Constantinople, SB 63. Countermark very fine, coin near fine Ex-stevex6 HERACLIUS AE 40 nummi follis. Struck at Syracuse, Sicily (below) Overstruck on a large follis of Anastasius from Constantinople circa 622 AD or earlier Diameter: 33.5mm Weight: 13.6g Obverse: Facing bust of Heraclius, monogram-cross beside, all within 9mm countermarked circle, bust of Anastasius clearly identifiable underneath Reverse Large M from original undertype, mintmark CON overstamped with SCLS mintmark. HOST COIN - ANASTASIUS I AE 40 nummi follis. Constantinople mint, circa 512-517 AD. D N ANASTASIVS P P AVG, pearl diademed, draped, cuirassed bust right. Reverse - Large M, star to left, cross above, star to right, A below. Mintmark CON. SB 16, DOC 20a. Countermark S 884 Ex-stevex6 Umayyad, Anonymous AE Fals (below) Date: 730-740 AD Diameter: 14.3 mm Weight: 2.6 grams Obverse: Pentagram Reverse: Legend References: Ex-stevex6 Constantine V with Leo IV. Æ Follis (below) Mint: Struck in Syracuse Reign: AD 741-775 Diameter: 20 mm Weight: Obverse: Constantine V, bearded, on left, and Leo IV, beardless, on right, each standing facing, wearing crown and chlamys and holding akakia; between their heads, cross Reverse: Leo III, bearded, standing facing, wearing crown and chlamys and holding cross potent Reference: Sear 1569 Other: Virtually full reverse legend Ex-stevex6 CAROLINGIANS. Charles le Chauve (the Bald). As Charles II, King of West Francia, AR Denier (below) 840-877 AD Diameter: 20 mm Weight: 1.56 grams Obverse: Without mint signature (Orléans). + CΛRLVS REX FR, cross pattée with pellet in each quarter Reverse: XPISTIΛNΛ RELIGIO, temple Reference: Coupland, Early group D, pl. 23, 43-7; M&G 1159; MEC 1, 846-9 Other: 6h … attractively toned Ex-stevex6 Leo VI the Wise. Æ Follis (below) Constantinople mint Struck 908-912 AD 886-912 AD Diameter: 25 mm Weight: 6.40 grams Obverse: Crowned bust facing, holding akakia Reverse: +LЄOҺ/ ЄҺ ӨЄO ЬA/SILЄVS R/OmЄOҺ in four lines Reference: DOC 8; SB 1729 Other: 6h ... rough red-brown surfaces Ex-stevex6 Anonymous Folles, Basil II & Constantine VIII Æ26 (Class A3) - below Constantinople mint circa 1020-1028 Diameter: 26 mm Weight: 7.04 grams Obverse: Facing bust of Christ Pantokrator Reverse: Legend in four lines; ornament above and below Reference: DOC A2.40; SB 1818 Other: 6h … dark gray-brown and red-brown patina Ex-stevex6 Andronicus II BI Trachy (below) Date: 1282-1328 AD Diameter: 24.2 mm. Weight: 1.5 gr Obverse: Six pointed star. Reverse: Andronicus flanked by two large B Ex-stevex6 Isaac II BI Trachy (below) => “or” Theodore 1, Nicaea (S.2062) Date: 1185-1195 AD Diameter: 28.1 mm Weight: 3.5 grams Obverse: Mary, nimbate, seated, holding the nimbate head of infant Christ. Reverse: Isaac holding cross-headed sceptre and akakia, crowned by hand of God in upper right field Ex-stevex6 Byzantine, Anonymous AE Follis Class G (below) Date: 1068-1071 AD Diameter: 26.5 mm Weight: 10.2 grams Obverse: Bust of Christ facing Reverse: Facing bust of the Virgin, nimbate Ex-stevex6 Edited June 14, 2022 by Steve 12 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeandAcre Posted June 13, 2022 · Member Share Posted June 13, 2022 Awesome stuff, @Steve!!! The 5th one down, with the counterstamps, is fantastic. ...And you Must be busy!!! ...Been there, done that. Except, the 9th one down is Carolingian --even though it incorporates a Greek element at the beginning of the reverse. (In a semi-liturgical capacity; think the Kyrie in the Latin mass. ...A convention continued in the Capetian gros tournois from Louis IX (/1266 or so) on.) It's very cool for being Charles the Bald, rather than the much commoner, earlier type of Louis II. +CARLVS REX FR /XPISTIANA RELIGIO (Depeyrot 3rd ed. /2008, 1189). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor Steve Posted June 13, 2022 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted June 13, 2022 Thanks for the kind comments, J-Acre ... ahaha, yah, I tried to sneak Chuck the Bald in there, but you caught me (I loved that sweet coin ... I recall that it wasn't cheap) 😉 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severus Alexander Posted June 13, 2022 · Supporter Share Posted June 13, 2022 (edited) On 6/12/2022 at 9:29 AM, BBA said: My personal favorite Justinian type (and probably the favorite coin of my entire collection): Justinian Ae Decanummium, Carthage mint (18.mm, 3.5gms) Obv: Bust of Justinian right with Christogram on breast Rev: Large I between two stars, cross above; KART in exergue 18 hours ago, BBA said: I found the coin at a show probably 20 years ago, and it's still the only one I've ever seen (and I collect Justinian coins so I'm always looking at auctions). Can't determine when it was struck as it's not a dated issue. There's also a follis with the chi-rho on the breast which is also tough but slightly more common than this one. I did a little more looking into your intriguing coin. Most of this info you probably already have, but just in case, and for anyone else interested, here's what I found. You're probably familiar with this book/website: https://www.byzantine-ae.info, known as "Early Byzantine Copper Coins" or EBCC. The chapter on Justinian Carthage coins (link) includes an example of the chi-rho-on-breast follis you mentioned. The follis and half follis corresponding to your coin are pre-reform weights, so the coin does indeed date from right after the conquest - very cool!! The DOC notes that Grierson dates this series to 534-39 (Carthage fell to the Byzantines in 533). In the DOC, the follis version of your coin with chi-rho is #286d (they have four, all officina gamma), and a decanummium is listed as 289... no mention of a chi-rho on the decanummium, though, and the mint mark is CAR rather than KART. The folles can have either. Obviously there was little standardization at this early stage. Since the EBCC chi-rho follis is also officina gamma, it's a pretty good bet that's the mint division for your decanummium too. (There are cross-on-breast varieties in the series too, in fact the DOC 289 coin might be one.) Here's the decanummium (DOC 289var.) in EBCC, can't tell what's on the breast: Anyway, I agree it's a fabulous coin, I can see why it's your favourite! Maybe you'd like to do a main post on it in the Byzantine subforum. Meanwhile I'll be looking for something in the same series! Emergency post-conquest coinage. 👍 Here's a Carthage coin produced by the Vandals just before the conquest, probably under Hilderic. Justinian used the peaceful Hilderic's ouster by Gelimer as an excuse to invade: And here's my only Justinian decanummium (Antioch). Until now I had no particular reason to want another as this one's pretty sweet, no? 😁 Edited June 13, 2022 by Severus Alexander 10 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeandAcre Posted June 13, 2022 · Member Share Posted June 13, 2022 @Severus Alexander, that last decanummum is amazing. --Yeah, the one of Carthage is too, but obviously on a different level. I have one, with no pics. But it's very cool how that monumental facing portrait of Justinian gets translated to that much smaller of a module. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Conduitt Posted June 13, 2022 · Supporter Share Posted June 13, 2022 I only have one Byzantine coin, which I hadn't thought of as ugly...although there was plague in Byzantium at the time. Justinian I Half Follis, 541-542 Nicomedia. Copper, 29mm, 11.00g. Helmeted and cuirassed bust facing, holding globus cruciger and shield with horseman motif; D N IVSTINIANVS P P AVI. A/N/N/O XЧ (Year 15), Large K, Chi-rho, mintmark NI (DOC 141; MIB 116; SB 203). 11 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quant.geek Posted June 13, 2022 · Member Share Posted June 13, 2022 (edited) The plague coins of Justinian are actually quite interesting with his googly eyes and is only present in the coins from Constantinople. Byzantine Empire: Justinian I (527-565) Æ Half Follis, Constantinople, RY 16 (Sear-165) Obv: D N IVSTINIANVS P P AVG. Helmeted and cuirassed bust facing, holding globus cruciger and decorated shield; cross right in field. Rev: Large K between ANNO - XЧI, cross above; Λ below. This particular coin is the so-called Plague Coin of Justinian. It depicts a deformed face of Justinian when he was recovering from the plague. See the following reference paper for more information:Pottier, H., L'empereur Justinien survivant à la peste bubonique (542), Mélanges Cécile Morrisson, Paris, 2010, p. 685-691 Edited June 13, 2022 by quant.geek 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeandAcre Posted June 13, 2022 · Member Share Posted June 13, 2022 Wow, @quant.geek. That's truly amazing. I posted this on the other forum, but it's definitely worth sitting in front of. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000rc43 And here's one of my more emphatically neo-Byzantine Aksumite /Axumite coins. It's considerably later; c. 570. But the dramatic change in the Ge'ez legend, from former convention, may symptomize the lingering effect of the 'Justinian Plague.' Obv. Hataz facing. Legend (in Ge'ez): 'King Hataz.' Rev. Cross in central lozenge, with crosslets at each angle. Legend: 'Mercy to the people.' Munro-Hay Type 141. 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBA Posted June 13, 2022 · Member Share Posted June 13, 2022 4 hours ago, Severus Alexander said: Here's a Carthage coin produced by the Vandals just before the conquest, probably under Hilderic That's a nice example and better than most I've come across! I obviously look for unusual coins and the early Byzantine "cross above bust" types definitely are that. Here's one of Justin I 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryro Posted June 13, 2022 · Supporter Share Posted June 13, 2022 What a fun thread. I recently picked up a coin from one of the new auction houses listed as Justinian II. I searched around on ac search and think I found the same type: JUSTINIAN II (First reign, 685-695). Follis. 10.6g 30.8mm Justinian was deposed and his nose was cut off (later replaced by a solid gold replica of his original) to prevent his again seeking the throne: such mutilation was common in Byzantine culture. He was exiled to Cherson in the Crimea. He did however regain the throne and rule bloodthirstily for anther six years. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quant.geek Posted June 13, 2022 · Member Share Posted June 13, 2022 I don't think that is Justinian II. Its probably Maurice Tiberius - Sear 494... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor Steve Posted June 14, 2022 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted June 14, 2022 Takin' Care of Byz-ness! 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furryfrog02 Posted July 22, 2022 · Supporter Author Share Posted July 22, 2022 Not to beat a dead horse (thread) but these 2 uggos came in the mail today and I absolutely love them 🙂 Heraclius 630 AD (RY 20) 3/4 Follis Constantinople Obverse: Heraclius, crowned (with pendilia), in military dress and holding long cross on left and Heraclius Constantine, crowned, and wearing chlamys, with short beard and holding cross on globe, on right, both standing facing, star between their heads, PTh monogram to left, K to right Rev: Large greek Lambda, ANNO left, cross above, regnal year XX right, officina letter Γ below. CON in ex. Note: Overstruck on Sear 808 Heraclius, Heraclius Constantine and Martina 627 AD (RY 17) Follis Nikomedia Obverse: Martina on left, Heraclius in the centre and Heraclius Constantine on right, all standing facing, each wearing crown and chlamys and each holding cross on globe Reverse: Large M, ANNO to left, cross above, regnal year GII or IGI, officina letter A below, mintmark NIKO 10 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jims,Coins Posted July 23, 2022 · Member Share Posted July 23, 2022 Minted at Constantinople during the reign of Constantine VIII, Porphyrogenitus and Romanus I, Lecapenus between 20 May 921 - August 931. Obv. +IhS XPS REX REcnAntI4M*.: Christ enthroned facing, wearing nimbus cr., pallium and colobium, and raising r. hand in benediction; in l. hand, book of Gospels. Rev. ROmAn’ET XPISTOFO’ A4cc b’.: Facing busts of Romanus I, with short beard (on l.) and Christopher, beardless (on r.), both crowned, holding between them long patriarchal cross; Romanus wears loros, whilst his son is clad in chlamys. BCVS #1745. CBE #6 pg. 201. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jims,Coins Posted July 23, 2022 · Member Share Posted July 23, 2022 - Minted at Constantinople during the reign of Michael II & Theophilus between 829 – 829 A.D. Obv. MIXIAHL.S.0EFILOS. Facing busts of Michael II, with short beard (on l.) & Theophilus, usually beardless (on r.) both crowned, the former wearing chlamys, the latter, loros; between their heads, cross. Rev. Large M between X/X/X & N/N/N; above, cross; beneath 0. BCVS #1642. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeandAcre Posted July 23, 2022 · Member Share Posted July 23, 2022 18 hours ago, Furryfrog02 said: Not to beat a dead horse (thread) but these 2 uggos came in the mail today and I absolutely love them 🙂 Heraclius 630 AD (RY 20) 3/4 Follis Constantinople Obverse: Heraclius, crowned (with pendilia), in military dress and holding long cross on left and Heraclius Constantine, crowned, and wearing chlamys, with short beard and holding cross on globe, on right, both standing facing, star between their heads, PTh monogram to left, K to right Rev: Large greek Lambda, ANNO left, cross above, regnal year XX right, officina letter Γ below. CON in ex. Note: Overstruck on Sear 808 Heraclius, Heraclius Constantine and Martina 627 AD (RY 17) Follis Nikomedia Obverse: Martina on left, Heraclius in the centre and Heraclius Constantine on right, all standing facing, each wearing crown and chlamys and each holding cross on globe Reverse: Large M, ANNO to left, cross above, regnal year GII or IGI, officina letter A below, mintmark NIKO (@Furryfrog02, I'd given you a cookie imogee, like @Severus Alexander did, but I'm kind on a diet. Less about the coin, more about me.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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