Benefactor DonnaML Posted July 9, 2022 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted July 9, 2022 5 minutes ago, Heliodromus said: No - I'm pretty sure that's as good as it gets for "both wings visible", since with victory in profile advancing left the near wing mostly obscures the far one. Here's the "one wing visible" type , RIC 214 And for comparison here's another of the "both wings visible" type, RIC 210 There's actually two bits of the mostly obscured far wing shown in this type of depiction ,the top of the wing in front of her face, and the end tip poking out behind the near wing: Neither of these are my coins, but they are both also ex. East Harptree hoard. Thanks! Do you agree that mine is also rosette-diademed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Conduitt Posted July 9, 2022 · Supporter Share Posted July 9, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, DonnaML said: Yes this is rosette. Edited July 9, 2022 by John Conduitt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heliodromus Posted July 9, 2022 · Member Share Posted July 9, 2022 2 minutes ago, DonnaML said: Do you agree that mine is also rosette-diademed? Hard to say - it does have that single boxy rosette in addition to the frontal rosette/jewel, but the overall construction is that of a pearl diadem. Normally a rosette diadem would have alternating rosettes and laurel leaves. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted July 10, 2022 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted July 10, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, Heliodromus said: Hard to say - it does have that single boxy rosette in addition to the frontal rosette/jewel, but the overall construction is that of a pearl diadem. Normally a rosette diadem would have alternating rosettes and laurel leaves. Mine does have another circular rosette down by the ear, in addition to the other two rosettes. And the examples at the links I gave show "rosetted-diademed" obverses without any laurel leaves. So I'm pretty sure that's what it must be, especially if the second wing is "visible": the "two visible wings" reverse and the "rosetted-diademed" obverse seem to be tied together, at least according to RSC. Edited July 10, 2022 by DonnaML Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heliodromus Posted July 10, 2022 · Member Share Posted July 10, 2022 (edited) 26 minutes ago, DonnaML said: Mine does have another circular rosette down by the ear, I'm not sure what that is! Compare to this one that also has it, yet appears to be pearl diademed: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=138604 On the other hand, here's another with a singular square "rosette" that CNG is calling a rosette diadem: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=3305361 These certainly aren't what a normal rosette diadem looks like, but unless more normal rosette diadems also exist at Lyons at this time, it does seem that rosette is a better description than pearl (which has zero rosettes, other than frontal rosette/jewel). Edited July 10, 2022 by Heliodromus 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordmarcovan Posted July 10, 2022 · Member Share Posted July 10, 2022 On 7/5/2022 at 3:42 PM, Al Kowsky said: I didn't buy this coin for it's quality which is pretty rough, but it is documented from a 135 year old hoard & wasn't over-cleaned 😊. I felt the same way. 🙂 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valentinian Posted July 10, 2022 · Member Author Share Posted July 10, 2022 @Heliodromus showed how Victory with both wings visible can look. Here is another one, with the same configuration. Just to the left of the head the forward edge of her right wing can be seen, and its end projects out behind the left wing toward 3:00. 20 mm. 2.92 grams. SiliquaCONSTANTIVS PF AVGVICTORIA AVGVSTORVMSIS with dotted crescent in exergue. RIC Siscia 162 At 2.92 grams it is a heavy (pre-reform) siliqua. It is also rosette-diademed. 4 hours ago, DonnaML said: However, if I correctly understand the difference between pearl-diademed and rosette-diademed busts, the two can be distinguished by the fact the latter have not only a single large jewel at the top of the diadem, but also a series of smaller jewels further down towards the ear, joined by short double links. Whereas pearl diadems have either no jewels or a single jewel at the top. That's right. However, I don't think many people care much about the distinction. For this general type there are "pearl-diademed", "rosette-diademed," and "laurel and rosette-diademed" busts. This one is "laurel and rosette-diademed." The difference is not large. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTrachyEnjoyer Posted July 10, 2022 · Member Share Posted July 10, 2022 😉 I wouldn’t consider any siliquae pre Heraclius late Constans II Papal siliqua - minted by Papal authorities in the mid seventh century. Although I no longer use or like cointalk, I have an in-depth write up on the site about this. Those that wish to learn more can find that link here: https://www.cointalk.com/threads/byzantine-papal-siliqua-arresting-a-pope-history-of-the-early-papacy-constans-ii.385050/ 7 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topcat7 Posted July 10, 2022 · Member Share Posted July 10, 2022 (edited) Constantius II RIC VIII. Arles 261 FER 1030 Siliqua VALENS RIC IX.Trier 27e Siliqua Edited July 10, 2022 by Topcat7 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Conduitt Posted July 10, 2022 · Supporter Share Posted July 10, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, TheTrachyEnjoyer said: I wouldn’t consider any siliquae pre Heraclius late This is the latest I can do... 😅 I don't think we've had one from this guy yet. Honorius Siliqua, 407-408Rome. Silver, 1.06g. Diademed, draped and cuirassed bust right; D N HONORIVS P F AVG. Roma seated left on cuirass holding Victory on globe and resting on spear; VIRTVS ROMANORVM; mintmark RM PS in exergue (RIC X, 1267). Found Cambridgeshire. Edited July 10, 2022 by John Conduitt 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severus Alexander Posted July 10, 2022 · Supporter Share Posted July 10, 2022 At least a couple of these should be late enough for ya, @TheTrachyEnjoyer! 😄 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Conduitt Posted July 10, 2022 · Supporter Share Posted July 10, 2022 1 minute ago, Severus Alexander said: At least a couple of these should be late enough for ya, @TheTrachyEnjoyer! 😄 Interesting collection! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTrachyEnjoyer Posted July 10, 2022 · Member Share Posted July 10, 2022 32 minutes ago, Severus Alexander said: At least a couple of these should be late enough for ya, @TheTrachyEnjoyer! 😄 Indeed! Is that Phocas from Noble? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted July 10, 2022 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted July 10, 2022 (edited) 9 hours ago, Valentinian said: That's right. However, I don't think many people care much about the distinction. For this general type there are "pearl-diademed", "rosette-diademed," and "laurel and rosette-diademed" busts. This one is "laurel and rosette-diademed." The difference is not large. Thank you, @Valentinian, for pointing out that there were, in fact, three types of diadems for these siliquae -- with pearls, with rosettes, and with laurel and rosettes, also identified as reverse types i, j, and k at p. 125 of RSC V (the introductory page for Constantius II), as well as types j, k, and l at id. p. 115 (the introductory page for his brother Constantine II). By doing so, you have resolved the question raised by @Heliodromus's suggestion that laurels are usually required for an obverse to be considered "rosette-diademed." That doesn't seem to be the case, at least for these reigns, as RSC indicates. In fact, a quick look seems to indicate that RSC doesn't even list the "laurel and rosette diadem" type for the other rulers in Volume 5. Certainly my one rosette diadem for Valentinian I has no laurel leaves; see the boldface portion of my description: Valentinian I, AV Solidus, 365 AD [Sear, Depeyrot] (reigned 364-375 AD), Antioch Mint, 3rd Officina. Obv. Rosette-diademed (with square & round rosettes separated by ovoid pearls), draped, & cuirassed bust right, D N VALENTINI-ANVS P F AVG [Dominus Noster Valentinianus Pius Felix Augustus] / Rev. Valentinian, in military attire, standing facing, head right, holding labarum or vexillum ornamented with “T” [uneven/Tau cross?] in right hand* and, in outstretched left hand, Victory standing left on globe, holding up crowning wreath towards emperor, RESTITVTOR – REIPVBLICAE around; in exergue, ANTΓ [Antioch Mint, 3rd Officina**]. RIC IX (1951) Antioch 2b (var. unlisted) ***; Sear RCV V 19267 at p. 294 (rosette-diademed, with no cross in the reverse left field, no stars or dots in the reverse exergue, and known from Officina 3, as well as Officina 10) (citing Depeyrot); Depeyrot II Antioch 23/1 Valentinian I (p. 281) (examples with this mint-mark, without stars or dots, & monogrammed cross in labarum rather than Chi-Ro, known from Officinas 3 & 10) (citing 1966 sale of this coin as the one example from 3rd Officina, with one other from 10th Officina) [Depeyrot, George., Les Monnaies d'Or de Constantin II à Zenon (337-491) (Wetteren 1996)]. 21.2 mm., 4.44 g. Purchased from Odysseus Numismatique [Julien Cougnard], Montpellier, France, Feb. 2022, “from an old Parisian collection”; ex Maison Vinchon Auction Sale, Mon. 25 April 1966, Hotel Drouot, Paris, Lot 257 (sold for 780 French francs, = $159.16 in 1966 U.S. dollars). [Footnotes omitted.] Because it now appears clear that my new Constantius II siliqua (posted above) shows Constantius with a rosette diadem, as well as because I now know from @Heliodromus that it has two wings visible (sort of!) on the reverse rather than one, I have now rewritten my description of this siliqua to classify it as RIC VIII 211 and RSC V 259b. Thus, the three relevant types listed in RSC V differ as follows (see RSC V pp. 125 & 131): RSC V 259a (RIC VIII 214): Pearl diadem, one wing visible. RSC V 259b (RSC VIII 211): Rosette diadem, two wings visible [my coin]. RSC V 259c (RSC VIII 210): Laurel and rosette diadem, two wings visible. So it seems that Spink, Triskeles, and Herakles all catalogued the coin slightly incorrectly. Which doesn't surprise me -- the differences, as you say, are not large! This is my current write-up, without the footnote: Constantius II (son of Constantine I), AR reduced Siliqua, Lugdunum (Lyon) Mint, 360-361 AD. Obv. Rosette-diademed [despite description by all dealers as pearl-diademed], draped, and cuirassed bust right, D N CONSTAN-TIVS PF AVG / Rev. Victory advancing left, holding wreath in right hand and palm frond in left, both wings visible [despite description by all dealers as one wing visible], VICTORIA DD NN AVG; in exergue, mint mark LVG (Lugdunum). 17 mm., 2.06 g. RIC VIII 211 [both wings visible]; RSC V 259b (ill. p. 131) [rosette-diademed; both wings visible, = RIC VIII 211]; Sear RCV V 17948 (ill. p. 165) [applicable to RIC 210-211 & 214]. Purchased from Herakles Numismatics, July 2022; ex. Triskeles Auction 31, 27.03.2020, Lot 344; ex Spink Auction 16006, 26-27 Sep 2016, East Harptree Hoard Sale, Part of Lot 2929 (see https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=1689&lot=2929); from 1887 East Harptree hoard (one of 49 coins of this type in hoard; see article with inventory, “On a Hoard of Roman Coins Found at East Harptree, Near Bristol,” The Numismatic Chronicle (Vol. VIII, London 1888), pp. 22-46 at pp. 39-40; available at https://archive.org/details/thirdnumismatic08royauoft/page/40/mode/1up). Thanks to both of you for your help. Edited July 10, 2022 by DonnaML 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severus Alexander Posted July 11, 2022 · Supporter Share Posted July 11, 2022 1 hour ago, TheTrachyEnjoyer said: Indeed! Is that Phocas from Noble? Yup, previously CNG and the Poncin collection - were you my underbidder, perhaps? Apologies if so! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTrachyEnjoyer Posted July 11, 2022 · Member Share Posted July 11, 2022 52 minutes ago, Severus Alexander said: Yup, previously CNG and the Poncin collection - were you my underbidder, perhaps? Apologies if so! Thankfully not! That was a great coin but targets more in line with my trachy collection stole my budget! Im glad to see you won it 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValiantKnight Posted July 11, 2022 · Member Share Posted July 11, 2022 In the name of Honorius, Visigoths in Gaul AR siliquaObv: D N HONORI-VS P F AVG, pearl-diademed, draped bust rightRev: VICTOR-IA ACGG, Roma seated left on cuirass, holding Victory on globe and spearMint: Narbonne (or another mint in Gaul) Mintmark: PSRVDate: 415/418 to 423 ADRef: RIC X 3703 var. 1.1 grams, 11 mm wide 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heliodromus Posted July 11, 2022 · Member Share Posted July 11, 2022 (edited) 12 hours ago, DonnaML said: By doing so, you have resolved the question raised by @Heliodromus's suggestion that laurels are usually required for an obverse to be considered "rosette-diademed." That doesn't seem to be the case, at least for these reigns, as RSC indicates. In fact, a quick look seems to indicate that RSC doesn't even list the "laurel and rosette diadem" type for the other rulers in Volume 5. Well, not so much that the laurel leaves (or maybe other spacers) need to be there, but rather that I'd been expecting the entire diadem to be of rosette construction (alternating rosettes and spacers), as opposed to these Lugdunese diadems which are basically a pearl diadem with single "rosette" to either side of center. These diadems were introduced and evolved during Constantine's time, and went through an evolution from plain band through pearl and a large variety of jeweled/decorated types, ending up with the laurel and rosette type. On these later siliquae the diadem is further evolving, as well as the previously scarce pearl diadem making a major comeback. During Constantine's time there were some differences in diadem type seen at different mints/regions, and the same seems to be continuing here. RIC VIII only has pearl/rosette on this issue at Lyons, but pearl/rosette/laurel-rosette at some of the other mints. The rosette vs laurel-rosette distinction is something new. Earlier RIC VII's "rosette" implied laurel-rosette. Whether what RIC calls laurel leaves (i.e. rosette spacers) were really always intended as laurel leaves is another question. In any case presumably they were gold rather than real leaves. With the diadem replacing the laurel wreath, they may have started out as strictly laurel leaves, but later evolved just to be purely decorative elements. Edited July 11, 2022 by Heliodromus typo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
O-Towner Posted July 11, 2022 · Member Share Posted July 11, 2022 Jovinus (411-413 AD) AR Siliqua (14.7mm, 1.2gms); Lugdunum mint Obv: D N IOVINVS P F AVG; Diademed and cuirassed bust right Rev: VICTORIA AVGG; Roma seated left on curule chair holding Victory on globe and reversed spear, SMLDV in exergue Ref: RIC X 1717 5 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted August 8, 2022 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted August 8, 2022 (edited) I have already posted my six other siliquae earlier in this thread, so I thought I would add my seventh, which arrived today after I purchased it in last month's Leu Numismatik web auction 21. It is my first coin of Emperor Jovian, the successor to Julian II. Jovian, AR Reduced Siliqua,* Nicomedia Mint (now Izmit, Turkey), AD 363-364. Obv. Pearl-diademed, draped, & cuirassed bust right, D N IOVIAN-VS P F AVG / Rev. VOT/V/MVLT/X in four lines within laurel wreath; in exergue: SMN [Nicomedia]. 18 mm., 2.11 g., 7 h. RIC VIII 127 (p. 485), RSC V Jovian 33Ae (ill. p. 147), Sear RCV V 19209 (ill. p. 287). Purchased from Leu Numismatik AG, Winterthur, Switzerland, Web Auction 21, 19 Jul 2022, Lot 5522, ex. Collection of Dipl.-Ing. [ = Engineering Master’s Degree] Adrian Lang, b. Germany 1956.** *See Sear RCV V at p. 271: “in AD 357 the weight of the [siliqua] denomination was reduced by one-third to 2 scripula or 2.25 grams.” **See https://leunumismatik.com/source/images/auction/36/pdf/b2acb9be-1e8d-4395-a863-6c5c7c37ed4b.pdf (from introduction to catalog for a 2021 Leu Numismatik auction, as translated by the DeepL Translator): “Adrian Lang was born on May 23, 1956, the second of five children in Weiden in the Upper Palatinate. Early on, the boy showed an interest in his environment and spent his free time studying insects, recognizing bird calls and making secret forays along nearby waters, always in search of the best fishing grounds. At the age of 13, through the acquaintance of a local historian, Adrian Lang first came into contact with the world of minerals. Numerous excursions to surrounding sites now channeled the collecting passion of the young man and laid the foundation for the development of a significant mineral collection. . . . This was followed by the study of civil engineering in the old Roman city of Roman city of Regensburg, where later as a young construction manager he was with historical artifacts from the Stone Age to the Middle Ages. But the numismatic spark was not to ignite yet, and and with his marriage to his great love Angelika in 1982, Adrian Lang moved to Schwarzenfeld in the Upper Palatinate, where their son Bernhard was born the following year. Here he found himself in the heart of a mining district in decline, and built up an important collection of collection of minerals from the Wölsendorf fluorspar district, which eventually became part of the famous mineral collection "Krügerhaus" of the Technical University Bergakademie Freiberg near Dresden. In the 1990s Adrian Lang threw himself with his characteristic passion into his new passion, ancient numismatics. Quickly crystallized in him interest in coins of the Boians and Vindelicans - many of these rarities have already been auctioned by Leu Numismatik - but his true love was for the portrait coins of the Roman emperors. Over the next twenty-five years, he steadily built up a collection of several thousand pieces, ranging from the early Republic to late antiquity. He placed particular emphasis on the 3rd century AD, thus he was particularly interested in the transition from denarius to antoninianus coinage under Gordian III (238-244 AD) and the family of Philip I the Arab (244-249 A.D.), but also numerous rare coins of ephemeral usurpers are represented. Adrian Lang paid great attention to the style and preservation of the imperial portraits; silver coins should also ideally be minted fresh and finely toned, and bronze coins should have a patina that is as untouched as possible. He also attached great importance to provenances. At the age of 56, Mr. Lang gave his life a new direction and and in 2012 left his previously stressful job in the management of a major construction company in order to fulfill his multifaceted life desires. This reorientation also gave him more time to pursue his hobbies, first and foremost the search for beautiful portrait coins of the Roman emperors. With increasing age, Mr. Adrian Lang has now decided to decided to part with his coin collection and to entrust it to Leu Numismatik for auction, in order to return his treasures to the circle of numismatic enthusiasts. The 647 coins presented in this catalog have been selected together with Dipl.-Ing. Adrian Lang for the Leu Auction 12: they represent the core of his collection and are intended to permanently preserve the character of the same in printed form for posterity. The second part of Mr. Lang's collection will finally be offered in 2022 in the Leu Web Auction 20. Although it is difficult to say goodbye, every ending is a new beginning. and we wish Mr. Lang all the best for his future." A photo of the still-living Mr. Lang: And, for whatever interest it may have, Leu's attestation regarding the origin of this coin and one other I purchased with origins in present-day Turkey: Regarding this particular coin, Schedule 2 to this attestation states that it "was sold as lot 5522 of Leu Numismatik AG Web Auctions 20 & 21 held in Winterthur, Switzerland on 16-19 July 2022. Prior to that it was: From the collection of Dipl.-Ing. Adrian Lang, acquired before 2021 and had been exported from Turkey considerably prior to 16 June 2021." Edited August 8, 2022 by DonnaML 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor Victor_Clark Posted August 9, 2022 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted August 9, 2022 Lot of five (5) AR Siliquae of Julian II. All coins: Lugdunum (Lyon) mint. RIC 218; RSC 163 Ex Classical Numismatic Group Electronic Auction 425 (25 July 2018), lot 851 (part of); 1887 East Harptree, Somerset Hoard (IRBCH 1424). 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor Victor_Clark Posted August 9, 2022 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted August 9, 2022 (edited) Lot of five (5) AR Siliquae of Julian II. All coins: Lugdunum (Lyon) mint. RIC 218; RSC 163 Ex Classical Numismatic Group Electronic Auction 425 (25 July 2018), lot 851 (part of); 1887 East Harptree, Somerset Hoard (IRBCH 1424). Edited August 9, 2022 by Victor_Clark wrong picture 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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