Jump to content

Going Dutch


robinjojo

Recommended Posts

  • Benefactor

Here's another necessity coin, this one from a later period and another war, the Franco-Dutch War (1672-1678), when the United Provinces was invaded by Louis XIV in 1672, nearly overrunning the country.  His advance was slowed when the dykes holding back the North Sea were removed by the Dutch in places, flooding the countryside and hindering any further progress of France and the allies with the invasion, saving the United Provinces from almost certain defeat.

This coin was issued by the city of Campen in 1672.

Campen necessity daalder, 1672.  This coin came from the World Wide Coins of California auction in June 1991, lot 250.

Davenport 4987; Delmont 710; Mailliet 13

28.2 grams

1789505673_D-CameraCampennecessitydaalder1672d4987del710mailliet1328.2gWW6-91lot2507-11-22.jpg.f6cc33e33c5568945500e637de00b4b3.jpg

 

Edited by robinjojo
  • Like 13
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Benefactor

Here's one more coin that I photographed today.

This is an ecu, Brabant, Spanish Netherlands.

Spanish Netherlands, Brabant, Philip II, ecu, 1558 with titles of Spain England.  Purchased in the 1990s from Credit de la Bourse, Paris.

33.9 gams

1486917332_D-CameraSpanishNetherlandsPhilipIIecuBrabant1558titlesSpainEngland33.9gcreditdelabourseParis7-11-22.jpg.a2107e57718ed47f0a1808fffdd4878f.jpg

 

  • Like 10
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Benefactor

Here's a clearly imitative lion daalder that I have very little information on.  I suspect that this coin was minted either in Turkey (Ottoman Empire), Middle East, Indonesia or the product of local manufacture elsewhere.

This is a very crude coin and the shield design on the obverse is odd, to say the least.  Instead of the traditional lion, there is a crude geometrical design of three long triangles, two lower pointing up and one at the center top pointing down.  The significance of this design is beyond me.  Online research based the design yielded zilch. 

So, does anyone have an opinion on or possibly knowledge about this coin?

It weighs 21.3 grams, roughly three quarters of a lion daalder's average weight.  The rather thin flan has a diameter of 40mm.

The coin appears to have been modeled after a lion daalder of Utrecht (TRA) on the obverse, and the date appears to be 1681, but the 8 is muddled so it could be a 3.

1557689125_D-CameraNetherlandsimitationliondaalderbasedonUtrecht1631or8121.3g7-13-22.jpg.a4e99e9455cef7b021363028381662ca.jpg

  • Like 11
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...
  • Benefactor

Here's a lion daalder that arrived today from MA Shops, Dirk Lobbers. This coin, a civic issue, was minted at the Imperial City of Deventer in 1640, the first year of lion daalders from this ephemeral mint.

This year is quite scarce and I think undervalued, with a price estimate of $500 in EF.  I used to be much more active collecting lion daalder, but over those years I saw very few of these first year coins from Deventer.  My search in recent sales online yielded a couple of examples, one in exceptionally nice condition.

My coin is a cleaned VF, typically crude, decently struck, and with some flan porosity, mainly on the obverse.  This coin has some unique features, such as the imperial eagle on the obverse shield, instead of the usual rampant lion.  Additionally, the date is on the obverse, running from around 10 o'clock to about 11:30 o'clock.  

According to Numista, the reported mintage for 1640 is 7,000.  

Netherlands, United Provinces, Deventer, lion daalder, 1640.

KM 51; Dav 4873.

26.89 grams

OBVERSE:  Armored knight left in inner circle
Lettering: IMP CIV CONF BE - LG PR SOCI 1640

Translation: Imperial city of the United Provinces of the Netherlands 1640.

REVERSE:  Rampant lion left in inner circle
Lettering: ME VIGILANTE FLORET DAVENT

Translation:  I watch over the flower Deventer.

686191813_D-CameraNetherlandsDeventerliondaalder1640KM52DavA487326.89gramsfirstyearMAShopsLobbers11-2-22.jpg.85ec2bfa10d1026b57b35f5435515783.jpg

  • Like 9
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Low Countries, Friesland (Graafschap). Bruno III, AD 1038-1057. AR Denar (18mm, 0.73 g, 9h). In the name of Heinrich III, Holy Roman Emperor. Leeuwarden mint. Obv: + HEINRICVS RE; Crowned head right; cross-tipped scepter before. Rev: BRVN; within rectangular border, LIVA - VREO; above and below. Ref: Dannenberg 502. 

image.jpeg.a26722fa2ce25fafa42935baf0ac2f87.jpeg

  • Like 13
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like Dutch coins, I have some. Here a 2 of them that are very hard to upgrade.

A 10 guilders of Willem III from 1887 on the left.

On the right a Golden Ducat from Utrecht 1729, wich I think it is recovered from a shipwreck.

Obverse: CONCO: RES PAR – CRES: TRA., knight facing right, standing between split date, sword leaning against right shoulder, holding bundle of arrows
Reverse: MO: ORD / PROVIN. / FŒDER / BELG. AD / LEG: IMP., all within ornate square

Some information of the ship: The wreck of the VOC ship ‘t Vliegend Hert, also known as ‘t Vliegend Hart, was a ship of the Dutch East India Company (VOC). It was built in 1729 for the VOC Chamber of Zeeland. It had a capacity for 850 tons of cargo and 256 crew members.
On February 3 1735 the ship set sail from Rammekens to East India, under the command of Cornelis van der Horst. Along with its sister ship the Anna Catharina, which had sailed out at the same time, ’T Vliegend Hert hit a sandbank 18 km off the coast of Vlissingen and sunk. All those on board perished.
The wreck of ‘t Vliegend Hert was discovered in September 1981. A money chest with 2000 gold ducats and 5000 silver reales were found among other things. One remarkable discovery were lead containers holding tobacco, anchovies and cheese.

 

ducat front.JPG

ducat back.JPG

  • Like 9
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/8/2022 at 2:35 AM, panzerman said:

Really beautifull Dutch coins!

I will begin with this example....

When it was under Burgundy

AV Cavalier d'or ND

Philip le Bon 1422-67 Comte de Hollande

De Hague Mint

0bb3927b7d682e67c1f6f6daa9795eed.jpg

Stunning gold as usual @panzerman! Bourgundian coinage is some of the most gorgeous coinage we have here in the Netherlands. Although one small point: not actually from the Hague! That mint would only briefly exist in 1454-56. Instead, like virtually all coinage from the county of Holland, it was struck in Dordrecht!

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
  • Benefactor

Because of their longstanding status as a foundational 17th century trade coin in Europe (especially Eastern Europe and Russia), the Middle East and Indonesia, where the Dutch held Java and other islands, the lion daalder was imitated by other rulers and private individuals.  I posted one such coin July 13th, a very odd one most likely of private origin.

Here is an example issued by Georg Rakocczi I of Transylvania.

For those familiar with lion daalders, the stylistic differences between this coin and those issued by the United Provinces are obvious.  The styling of  both lions, resembling rodents, really stands out, as does the rendering of the knight and the letters of the legends.  

At first glance the obverse legend could be misconstrued to end with "TRA" which would lead one to conclude that the coin is from Utrecht.  However, the legend actualy ends with "TRAA", which would not correspond to Utrecht (TRA or TRAI) or Overijssel (TRAN or TRANS).  In fact, I was told by Jim Elmen, owner of World Wide, that the consignor did not even know this coin is a Transylvanian imitation! 

Transylvania, Georg Rakocczi I, lion daalder, 1638.   From World Wide Coins of California May 2017 auction

Gamberini 60

26.8 grams

872253913_D-CameraTransylvanialiondaalder1638GeorgRakoccziIGamberini60WW5-1726.8g3-18-22.jpg.5e683b045c113b045150c7af40f9c72b.jpg

 

Other lion daalder imitations were produced in Germany and elsewhere, including this generally well known plated coin from Rietberg, Germany.

Note the small plating breaks on the obverse and reverse.

Germany, Rietberg, Johann I, lion daalder (plated), 1660.

KM# 71.2,Dav ECT# 7326A

22.16 grams

271659819_D-CameraLionDaalRietbergJohannIV1660PlatedImitation22.16gKM71.2DavECT7326A12-8-21.jpg.847a17aca358ba318461898257d38c05.jpg

 

I have a couple more imitations that need to be photographed.

 

Edited by robinjojo
  • Like 11
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...
  • Benefactor

Here's a recent arrival from Germany.  This is a lion daalder, typically crude and struck on a characteristically late period broad flan (at 44mm) , of West Friesland, 1700.  Several years ago I acquired the same date and mint (second photo), but that coin has a different reverse mint symbol, a rosette or flower.  The new coin has a  cinquefoil mint symbol above the lion's head on the reverse, quite different.  Krause lists that mint mark but not a flower for this date and mint.  Could this be an unlisted symbol?  I'm still looking into that possibility.

Here's the new coin:

West Friesland, lion daalder, 1700,  cinquefoil mint symbol.

D 4870  

27.27 grams

75034392_D-CameraWestfrieslandliondaalder1700cinquefoilmintmarkD487027.27gramsrare1-16-23.jpg.53d5e7e4c28c0ed6bf82b306b571ae3b.jpg

 

Here's the other coin:

West Friesland, lion daalder,  1700, rosette or flower mint symbol.

44.5 mm, 27.40 grams

105561460_D-CameraWestfrieslandliondaalder170027.4grare12-5-21.jpg.afca70264e960643307b6b3572b19636.jpg

 

The late lion daalders, especially those from 1690 and later are very scarce to very rare, depending on the mint.  The vast majority of these coins date from the early to mid 1600s, based on my experience.  I would really love to acquire a 1713 example, but those are very rare!

 

Edited by robinjojo
  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Those are really nice/ always neat to find a coin in your coll. that is unlisted. The coinage of the Low Countries/ from Burgundian era thru 1700s are very beautifull. Although the Spanish ones are poor quality in minting. Seems strange that Spain with all her gold reserves could not find more qualified mint engravers/ masters/ mint workers.....

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Benefactor
On 1/17/2023 at 1:09 PM, panzerman said:

Those are really nice/ always neat to find a coin in your coll. that is unlisted. The coinage of the Low Countries/ from Burgundian era thru 1700s are very beautifull. Although the Spanish ones are poor quality in minting. Seems strange that Spain with all her gold reserves could not find more qualified mint engravers/ masters/ mint workers.....

It seems, as a general rule of thumb, the quality of Spanish coinage declined during the reign of Charles II.  Of course, there are exceptions, notably with some gold issues, but the colonial mints were churning out the hammer struck cobs that varied to incredibly crude for Mexico, to somewhat less crude for Potosi and Lima, with the exception of the round "royal" coins, which were really special presentation pieces.  Most of his silver cobs from Seville are very crude.  The patagons of the Spanish Netherlands continued from Philip IV as the same crude hammer struck coins under Charles II.

In the early 1700s coinage quality improved with the widespread introduction of machine struck, milled edge coins.  Still, mints notably in South America continued producing crude cob coins until 1773, in the case of Potosi.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Benefactor

I thought that I will post some coins of the Spanish Netherlands.  I have several that I will photograph over time.  Almost all are the crown size patagons, which circulated locally and in eastern Europe, especially in Poland, the Baltic and Russia, where, in Russia they were often countermarked.  Indeed, I purchased several of these coins from a Polish seller about 10 years ago, from a hoard found in that country.

The patagon has an average fineness of .875, which gives it a higher silver content compared the the Dutch lion daalder, at an average.750.  

This is a coin photographed today.  It is a patagon of Albert and Elizabeth.  No doubt the flow of sliver from the Spanish colonial mints provided much of the basis for the prolific output of these coins, mostly undated for these two rulers.  This example has a date, 1617, seen on the reverse around 12 o-clock.  Dated coins are definitely the exception for these early patagons. Moving into the 1620s all coins bore a date.

This coin is a hammer struck coin, as were virtually all patagons through the reign of Charles II.  As such they are often very crude, with flan flaws, crude strikes and areas of mushy detail, mirroring their colonial reales cousins.  As was the case with the colonial coins, these coins were produced with the focus on speed of production.  Aesthetics were not a priority! 

This is example is actually above par, even with the flan flaws.  Finding a good type example, with clear detail, good centering and relatively few flaws can be a challenge.  

Spanish Netherlands, Albert and Elizabeth, AR patagon, 1617, Antwerp (hand mint mark).

KM 35

27.9 grams

Obverse:
Crowned cross of Saint Andrew, flanked by pair of crowned A Y monograms. Mintmark at top, beginning legend.

Reverse
Crowned coat of arms surrounded by collar of the Order of the Golden Fleece.

1094374558_D-CameraSpanishNetherlandsAlbertElizabethARpatagon1617AntwerpKM3527.9grams1-19-23.jpg.76e5154fd12379537e89159ec7b3f573.jpg

I will post more coin as I can photograph them.

Please post your Spanish Netherlands coins, if you wish,

Thanks

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Benefactor

I came across this cool map today.  It is a map of The Netherlands and low countries, with a transposed image of a lion.  Around the periphery of the map are the governors of the low countries. 

Leo Belgicus, a print by Joannes van Deutecum and Claes Jansz Visscher, created on  January 1, 1650.

384406432_LeoBelgicusprintbyJoannesvanDeutecumClaesJanszVisscherJanuary11650commemorateDutchindependencefromSpain1-21-23.jpg.a579f7a8e640e040a2839badcd05a06e.jpg

 

Here are a couple of coins that were photographed today.

The first one is from Gelderland, 1597, with a probable 7 punched over a 3.  This lion daadler, from the 1590s, has both the issuing province, Gelders, incorporated in the obverse legend, so that it reads: "Moneta nova ordinum Gelriae Hollandiae".  Roughly translates to "New money by ordinance Gelderland of Holland".  The date, unlike the lion daalders of the 1600s, is at the bottom, split by the shield.  In the case of this coin the 7 of the date appears to be over a 3, whose lower portion is visible.

Netherlands, Gelderland, lion daalder, 1597 (7 over 3), mint mark cinquefoil.

Davenport 8826

26.9 grams

831246595_D-CameraNetherlandsGeldersliondaalder15977over3D882626.9grams1-21-23.jpg.aa681346ca463df64576dd930a97fc2c.jpg

 

The second coin, by contrast, is from a crusty hoard, from Jordan.  These coins circulated widely in the Middle East.  Over the past several years lion daalders have been appearing on the market, notably eBay, coming from an apparent hoard found near the Jordanian Gulf of Aqaba port city of Aqaba.

Netherlands, Zeeland, lion daalder, 1616, mint mark castle.  A Jordan find, probably from near Aqaba.

Davenport 4872

26.32 grams

2051833823_D-CameraNetherlandsZeelandliondaalder1616JordanfindpossiblyAqabaD487226.32grams1-21-23.jpg.f5c90e121aac128e58b3a7dc97b25dcf.jpg

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 5 weeks later...
  • Benefactor

Here's an attractive and unusual three-year type.  From 1597 to 1599 Zeeland produced very distinctive lion daalders, not because of their obverse designs, which are of the standard provincial type, but because of the "lion in the waves" design on the reverse, a repetition of the design used for the obverse's shield.  No other province used this reverse design.  Why was this modification made?  I don't have any information in this regard, except to speculate that Zeeland chose this theme to tout the sea power of the United Provinces during the war for independence from Spain.  Further, it could also be a reference to Zeeland's relationship to the North Sea, an intertwined one given the province's (and much of the Netherlands') dependence on the sea economically and militarily.

Netherlands, Zeeland, lion daalder, 1598.  Three-year type (1597-1599).

Davenport 8870

26.48 grams

D-CameraNetherlandsZeelandliondaalder1598D88703yeartyoe1597-9926.48grams2-21-23.jpg.cff84c39701ca2c9ac6cb3a7c13bfd05.jpg

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pays-Bas/ Hollande/ Bavarian Countship

AV Florin d'or ND

DeHague Mint "Flower" m.m.

Willem V "the Insane" 1350-89 Comte de Hollande

He once at a banquet, took offence when a drunken Knight made a sly remark about his looks. The Count then sliced off his head with his board sword.🤐

818864ecbb87e2640b740af2da377d00.jpg

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
  • Benefactor

Here are two coins acquired from Numismatik Naumann's Auction 125.  Both are quite rare as dates for their respective mints.

Gelders, lion daalder, 1663.  From NN Auction 125, lot 860.

Davenport 4849

27.07 grams

Gelders, or Gelderland, was one of the more prolific mints of the United Provinces.  This date, however, doesn't show up very often.  In fact this is the first one that I have seen.  For the general collector this is likely not an important feature, but for more specialized collectors, this coin is worth a premium.

This particular coin is nicely struck, for a lion daalder, with nearly full legends.  Still by the standards of European coinage standards of this period, it is very crude.

D-CameraNetherlandsGeldersliondaalder1663Dav484927.07gramsraredate3-15-23.jpg.dc6e1847b23715d46bcaec28dd7da173.jpg

 

Friesland, lion daalder, 1653.  From NN Auction 125, lot 837.  Rare final date.

Davenport 4853

27.09 grams 

The coinage output of Friesland was one of the more sporadic of the provincial mints.  It was also one of the more short lived mints, ending minting operations in 1653.  I noticed that Krause lists a 1663 date for this mint, but does not show an example online, through NGC.  Such a date could exist, but Davenport lists 1653 as the final date, so I'm sticking with that. 

Why minting ceased is something of an open question for me.  Perhaps the proximity of this mint to the West Friesland provincial mint, a major one with a long history, made Friesland superfluous.  Whatever the reason, Friesland lion daalders run from scarce to rare over the course of the 17th century.

While these coins, made for commerce and international trade, were generally crudely hammered objects, it seems that the Friesland mint coins were even cruder, especially as production moved forward in the 17th century.  Flans were poorly prepared, as demonstrated by this coin's significant flaws.  The strikes are very often very uneven and poorly centered.  The dies were also generally crudely engraved.  So, while this mint's output was modest, its coins, being among the crudest of the crude, are not attractive, even by lion daalder standards.

Note, however, how the ion was centered in a manner that avoided any of the large flan flaw so it did not impinge on the design.  The obverse knight was not as fortunate.

D-CameraNetherlandsFrieslandliondaalder1653Dav485327.09gramsNNAuction125837rarefinaldate3-15-23.jpg.38ce890e44b2deb47f29d2bacfa8b048.jpg

Edited by robinjojo
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
  • Benefactor

Here's a coin photographed today, a patagon of Artois, Spanish Netherlands.  These coins circulated extensively in the Baltic region among the Hanseatic League cities and Russia.  

The Arras mint (rat symbol), located in northern France bordering Flanders, had a very limited minting run in the 1620s to around the mid 1630s, making patagons from this mint quite rare.

Spanish Netherlands, Philip IV, patagon, 1629, Arras, Artois.

KM 4

27.16 grams

D-CameraSpanishNetherlandsPhilipIVpatagon1629ArtoisKM427.1grams3-30-23.jpg.87e04f6da67820584bd3ce79231af653.jpg

Edited by robinjojo
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Benefactor
13 minutes ago, coinfuntornado83 said:

Hi everyone!DutchSilverLionDaalderKlippe1632.png.f9264e89735d488f661f6452b197c2cd.pngliondollarmap.png.8ee28647e60b1b066e45511f15ab43d9.pngliondollarcurrency.png.7b4e0c135cacb020bac0c4bd43c1c831.png here are some pictures I have found related to Lion Dollars. Has anyone seen this kind of Lion Dollar before? Also does anyone have a picture of a 1713 Lion Dollar. I know they are very rare but I would like to just see a picture if possible. Thanks

The 1713 lion daalder is extremely rare.  I can't even recall the last time that I saw one offered for sale.  The latest date that I have is 1700.

I love that letter of credit!  These letters helped greatly in the facilitation of trade in the 17th century forward.  The map is also very cool.

The West Friesland klippe 1/2 lion daalder, 1642. is very rare and unusual.   Davenport lists klippe lion daalders from this mint, D-4870A, starting in 1637 and issued sporadically until 1667, all valued as "rare".

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...