Byzantine help please - 1081-1118 A.D. Alexius I

[Topcat7]

I purchased this tetarteron of Alexius I but in trying to attribute it through 'Acsearch' (and the like) I have noticed that the Loros (chlamys) flows from the left shoulder (right as you look at the coin) to the right shoulder (or left as you look at the coin), whereas in most (if not all) of the 'examples' I can find it is shown 'flowing' the other way.

Should I be concerned about this? 

Alexius I (1081-1118). Æ Tetarteron (18.2mm, 14.1g,). Uncertain Greek mint.

Obv: Crowned bust facing, wearing loros and holding jeweled sceptre and globus cruciger.

Rev: Patriarchal cross set on two steps; 

 

 

Edited October 5, 2023 by Topcat7

[ela126]

This coin very much has the look of a certain unscrupulous dealer on eBay who sells out of the UK. With 99% certainty I can say this coin is not authentic 

[Topcat7]

43 minutes ago, ela126 said:

This coin very much has the look of a certain unscrupulous dealer on eBay who sells out of the UK. With 99% certainty I can say this coin is not authentic 

Would this seller go by a name similar to 'sss88sss' ??

[ela126]

Likely a different name but same fake look. This is almost the same as yours, clearly wrong 

[Zimm]

I sadly have to agree with @ela126, the coin is a forgery. A lot of similar fakes have appeared on eBay in the last year or so.

[Topcat7]

@ela126 & @Zimm

Thank you. I have returned the 'coin' for refund.

[catadc]

@Topcat7 There were a lot of old imitations of the SB 1932 half tetarteron of Alexius I. You can see two below from my collection. But your coin is most likely a recent fake, with similar style of some coins sold on ebay by UK sellers. Maybe @Simon , the tetartera expert, could confirm. 

 

[Simon]

These coins were once considered rare on ebay, they are not, they were issued in mass by Alexius and but imitators a century later. 

I have worked in art for 30 years, one lesson learned is to hold negitive opinions on art and other collectables to yourself for legal reasons. I personally would not condemn the coin especially when not in hand, Imitations of the 13th century made mistakes being very similar. 

I have a perfect example of your coin with the legend reversed ( I cannot find a pic right now) but I bought it from a dealer friend who needed a sale that day. I consider it to m be an imitation.

Here is my favorite imitation from the 13th century. Looks legit but notice how Christ was created with circles, not a coin you see everyday. 

 

Bottom line , know who you are buying from , there a ton of fakes on Ebay but I am not certain yours is one or if it is an imitation from the 13th century. 

[ela126]

as an FYI. @Valentinian has a good list about this stuff. ssss888sss is on the list as known faker. worthwhile to bookmark if you have a concern

fakesellers eBay (augustuscoins.com)

[Glebe]

On 10/6/2023 at 8:21 AM, Topcat7 said:

I purchased this tetarteron of Alexius I but in trying to attribute it through 'Acsearch' (and the like) I have noticed that the Loros (chlamys) flows from the left shoulder (right as you look at the coin) to the right shoulder (or left as you look at the coin), whereas in most (if not all) of the 'examples' I can find it is shown 'flowing' the other way.

Should I be concerned about this? 

Alexius I (1081-1118). Æ Tetarteron (18.2mm, 14.1g,). Uncertain Greek mint.

Obv: Crowned bust facing, wearing loros and holding jeweled sceptre and globus cruciger.

Rev: Patriarchal cross set on two steps; 

 

 

Is the weight really 14.1g?

Half-tets like S.1932 average c. 2g, less for the imitative versions.

[Glebe]

If the weight is 14.1g, then my guess is that this coin is a post-reform imitative follis, struck by some place which preferred the old folles to Alexius's newfangled tetartera.

Ross G.

 

[Topcat7]

On 10/8/2023 at 10:48 AM, Glebe said:

If the weight is 14.1g, then my guess is that this coin is a post-reform imitative follis, struck by some place which preferred the old folles to Alexius's newfangled tetartera.

Ross G.

 

Sorry, Ross. A 'typo' on my part. Weight is 4.1gm.

[Glebe]

2 hours ago, Topcat7 said:

Sorry, Ross. A 'typo' on my part. Weight is 4.1gm.

That makes more sense although it's still heavy for a contemporary imitative tet.

For the weights of these types see here:

https://www.glebecoins.org/paleos/Notes/12th_Century_Trachea___Tetarte/12th_century_trachea___tetarte.html

Ross G.

[Simon]

Still not advocating this particular coin but I think it is important to point out that this partiicular type in the OP is much more common as an imitation than the original issue. 

Several coins of the time period were either imitated or created by some other local but maybe official mints. I spent years looking for nice examples that were fully struck , they are not easily found compared to the imitations. Tonight i was rereading The Braudon Hoard and petty coinage of Central Greece  by Metcalf in 1964 and they date a hoard to the time of Isaac II that was majority under weight poorly struck imitations. I thought these particular creations were from the 13th century, the author describes them with weights as low as .5mg.

Hendy in his writings fact listed this type of coin as from a unknown Greek mint.

Another recent article about the excavation for a subway system in Thessalonica found so many examples of the coin they question if that was not the original minting place.

Here is what i believe is an official issue around 2gm.

here is an imitation from my collection, pardon the photo but it is at .6gm

 

I will see if the Thessalonica subway finds  were of the heavier type. My thought is they were official issues but the imitated variety came at a later date. However If the dating of the several hoards found is correct,these coins were being minted at the same time as the nicer and official issues. 

As for ebay, i looked tonight and found a dozen forgerys of common tetartera, its a bit alarming how forgerys of these common coins are being brought to market.

 

[Simon]

No weights given but this is from the reference. The Byzantine Numismatic Single Finds from the Thessalonica Metro Archaeological Excavations 2008-2015.pdf by Eleni Lianta of Oxford University. 

Bottom line, the more we know the more we do not. 16,000 coins were found at Venizelou station. Out of this only 6700 have been cleaned and out of those 3000 were in such poor condition they could not be attributed. 

 

 

 

[Glebe]

Hi Simon,

The problem with S.1932/DOC45 of Alexius I is that divides into (at least) three different subtypes, as listed in my table. DOC45a is the full weight half-tet, while 45b & 45c-d are lighter and perhaps later issues.

On the other hand the 203 examples from Thessalonica quoted by Lianta are not distinguished by subtype – all we have is a gross figure for "DOC45" as a whole.

So what were Lianta’s Thessalonican coins?  Were they all DOC45a? Quite possibly, but we don’t really know.

Ross G.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Glebe

[Simon]

Your right as we both stated we need info on the Thessalonica finds, problem with that is they are not a hoard but individual coin losses so we would be unable to date the loss.

The other issue is I always thought the lighter imitation issues came later, according to the data from the Brauron hoard data, they could have been made concurrently.

When Metcalf wrote the pamphlet a couple of interesting points.

The lighter versions are found in quantity in North Greece and the better and heavier examples are found in Southern Greece. ( Why would the better issues be made away from the main mint?) I wonder if this is a typo on his part? 

The three hoards discussed all three contained both types the light weight imitations and the heavier type. The first two hoards are both believed concealed during the reign of Manuel. 

The third and main hoard does have Andronicus and  Isaac II coins but the vast majority are the imitation Manuel tetartera. Even lower weight as described your type III, averaging .5gm, so that hoard could have been concealed at a later date than Isaac II reign but not way to be certain.  

It also contained two light weight unlisted imitations. One caught my attention right away.  #17

Obv Tree of life with NI KA between the tree of life ( Patriarchal cross.)

REV  Emperor with Crown and loros 

Metcalf believed it may have been an Transistional issue and thus an early coin of Alexius II. 

Reminds me of this find in my collection. 

 

And for those unfamilar here is and excellent example of same coin in the smaller size ( 1/2 tet).