medieval Secret signs on medieval coins

[Coinmaster]

Hi all, there's much unknown about the so called 'secret signs' on medieval coins. Like small dots and other symbols on coins. Attached an example of a Dutch coin from John II from the county Holland (1299-1304). I wrote an article about it some time ago, but the dot behind the neck of the count remains a mystery. It could be a minters mark, or something to do with a certain coin production, coin quality, etc.

What do you think and, please, show me your 'secret' coins!

 

Edited July 31, 2023 by Coinmaster

[John Conduitt]

English coins always have these privy marks. Here you can find saltires and pinecones in addition to the cross patonces, and I think there should be a mascle after Rex. If it wasn't a mule, there would be leaves and trefoils in there too.

Henry VI First Reign Pinecone-Mascle/(Leaf) Trefoil Mule Groat, 1434-1435

Calais. Silver, 28mm, 3.92g. Crowned facing bust within tressure of arches; lis at cusps; +hENRIC.DI.GRA.REX.ANGL.S.FRANC, pinecones after HENRIC, DI and GRA, saltire after REX; cross patonce initial mark both sides; crosses IIIb/IIIb. Long cross pattée; triple pellets in quarters; +POSVI DEVM:A DIVTOR EMEVM; VIL:LA: CALI SIE CALI over SIV (cf S 1875/1899). Ex Ivan Buck. From the Reigate Brokes Road (Surrey) Hoard 1990, struck from the same reverse die as a Calais Trefoil issue groat in the Reigate Hoard.

[JeandAcre]

Sadly enough, I have to be predisposed to agree with @John Conduitt.  As he notes, from the later phases of the medieval English series (14th c.), extending all the way to Charles I (earlier 17th), 'mintmarks' (for Americanists, that's the mark at the beginning of the obverse legend) are only about dating the interval of the coin's mintage.  Ditto (again vis. @John Conduitt) regarding comparable devices in the legends, and even variations of pellets and annulets in the angles of the reverse crosses, especially during the 14th and 15th centuries.

...So, yeah, Sorry, @Coinmaster, my guess is that your example is likely to be reducible to stuff as prosaic as that, relating to the logistics of mintage, instead of anything of deeper, and more fun significance. 

[Coinmaster]

6 hours ago, JeandAcre said:

relating to the logistics of mintage, instead of anything of deeper, and more fun significance. 

Yes, I'm quite certain that's the case for the 14th and 15th century coins. But how about the 12th and 13th century coins? I'm not too sure about this.

Some 12th century coins probably had more meaning/purpose than only for economic transactions. I wrote something about that in this publication (in Dutch, but you'll see the many strange symbols (p. 77-84) in front of the head of the count of Holland and page 75 about the multiple values).

https://www.academia.edu/53388550/_2021_Een_muntreeks_van_graaf_Floris_III_van_Holland_1157_1190_Inventarisatie_en_catalogus

[Roerbakmix]

@AnYangManknows a lot about the coinage from Floris V, and Dutch medieval coinage in general. 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Roerbakmix

[JeandAcre]

Thanks, @coinmaster, the 14th-15th and 12th-13th centuries really are substantively different contexts.  Touchet!

...Wish I could read the article!

[JeandAcre]

https://www.abebooks.com/Astronomical-Symbols-Ancient-Medieval-Coins-Faintich/30821474593/bd

 

I think there's a website about this, too, but I have to get out the door for work!

[Coinmaster]

2 hours ago, JeandAcre said:

Wish I could read the article!

You can with the google translate app on your smartphone!

[Coinmaster]

1 hour ago, JeandAcre said:

I think there's a website about this, too, but I have to get out the door for work!

I have the book, great one!

[John Conduitt]

I think it will depend on the symbol. Some are not very 'secret' and must mean something. Perhaps propaganda - the French and Germans added heraldic symbols.

The stars here may have been added in 1093 after the annular solar eclipse. William I also featured stars on his coins, struck soon after the appearance of a bright comet in 1075, and Halley's comet that accompanied his invasion of England in 1066.

William II Rufus Voided Cross Penny, 1092-1095

London. Silver, 1.38g. Crowned bust facing, star either side; + þillelm rei. Voided short cross potent over cross pommée; + þvlfþord on lv (moneyer Wulfword (Wulfweard) on London) (S 1260).

[JeandAcre]

Thanks for reminding me of Google Translate, @Coinmaster.  I don't have a smart phone, but resort to the same program fairly often from the desktop.  Just takes a little longer, I imagine; two pages is no big deal.

[JeandAcre]

5 hours ago, Coinmaster said:

I have the book, great one!

...Aaah, there it is your bibliography!  

Regarding Google Translate from a(n aging) desktop, your article might be a bit of a challenge!  But I have just enough German (nearest there is, from here) that I can probably squint out some of the general import of certain passages, and put them through Google.

[Ursus]

These 14th/15th century French blanc guénars have "secret" additions to the legends that indicate mint and emission. The first one has a dot under the 16th letter of the legend (Tournai, 2nd emission), the second one has a ringlet under the cross in both legends (Paris, 4th emission). Quite a sophisticated system!

Kingdom of France, Charles VI "the Well Liked" or "the Mad," AR blanc guénar, 1389 AD, Tournai mint, 2nd emission. Obv: +KAROLVS FRANCORV REX; French coat of arms. Rev: + SIT NOME DNI BENEDICTV, Cantoned cross with two crowns and two fleurs de lis in angles; "secret dot" under 16th letter of legends. 27.5mm, 2.55g. Ref: Duplessy 377A. Ex @Orfew collection.

 

Kingdom of France, Charles VI "the Well Liked" or "the Mad," AR blanc guénar, 1411 AD, Paris mint, 4th emission. Obv: +KAROLVS:FRANCORV:REX; French coat of arms; ringlet under cross in legend. Rev: +SIT:NOME:DNI:BENEDICTV, Cantoned cross with two crowns and two fleurs de lis in angles; ringlet under cross in legend. 25.5mm, 2.98g. Ref: Duplessy 377C.

[seth77]

I am interested in the different privy marks on the royal French coinage from the 13th and 14th centuries, mostly the second part of Louis IX's reign to Philippe VI, and have for some years actively searched for interesting marks and/or combinations, trying to perhaps link some to Louis X or Philippe V.

Here is one interesting, a star with six rays (etoile) on both the obverse and reverse of a denier tournois from tresor de Puylaurens, possibly Philippe IV, c. 1290-5 (Duplessy 225A):