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Nothing of value, nothing to say?


NewStyleKing

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I have noticed that quite incredibly , my post "Provenance for me is nothing of true value" has racked up 2.6K views whilst having only 80 replies, probably mainly me!

I wonder what  it was  that attracted  them  and that the vast, vast majority  had  nothing to say?

Even my Roma XXVlll got  1K, 27 replies !  now  looking around, these  are  huge figures.

The replies minus mine, are often the same ol' crowd.

I long suspected that coin people  are a funny lot..secretive, insular, peculiar odd etc 

I mean I am amazed  that people obsess  over " CUDS"! A slight malfunction of the modern mass minting process, or a bit of grease got in the way....I mean, how banal! And the associated coins  are the "Beanie Baby" pointlessness of modern coins.

At least my coin failures  can be ascribed  to working under pressure  in ghastly conditions and  under  the lash!

 

 

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Assuming the business of numismatics is a reasonably efficient market, the price of individual coins is always correct.  Sellers who demand too high a price are unlikely to secure a sale, and sellers who price their goods too low quickly run out of inventory.  Even coins which are extremely scarce still require a willing buyer and a willing seller.  

This does not mean that everyone in the market will feel that every transaction is appropriately priced.  If fact, I think it means that most people will think the price is too high.  If the price were too low, there would be more intense competition for the goods, and the price would rise.  Some people would even buy goods they did not really want, to resell at a higher price, if that were easy to do.  

That means the coin below is appropriately priced at millions of dollars.

image.jpeg.d6b0316b04b8e4cf4ba70a79fbd2cafd.jpeg

It just is not worth millions of dollars to me.  Even if I had a billion dollars, I would not pay so much for it.   Nor would I spend big bucks on a Honus Wagoner baseball card.  Modern coins with cuds are completely uninteresting to me, and in a world populated by clones of me, they would command no premium at all.  But my interest, and funds, are not required to support that part of the market.

On the other hand, if I had millions to spend on coins, you might see a rise in the price of Greek dekadrachms, Roman gold multiples, high grade sestertiī, and Byzantine coins of all descriptions.  

I just purchased a coin of Emperor Louis the Pious, in beautiful condition.  There are 26 examples known to Depeyrot, the authority in the field.  My coin may even be the finest known.  Even after auction premium, shipping, currency conversion, and banking fees which add almost 50% to the hammer price, it will cost me less than $300.  The Liberty nickel is ten thousand times more expensive.

All of which is to say that anyone reading this forum probably collects something which, even amongst that limited segment of the population which has any interest in numismatics at all, would be considered highly specialized, even esoteric, and of limited appeal.  

For which, we should all be profoundly grateful.  Otherwise, we would be priced out of the market, and we could not buy coins like the one below.

image.png.f1e32763c20c54959c1b8972be5f26e3.pngimage.png.fd5446bae349840b546517b52fec7179.png

Solidus, Justinian the Great, of Carthage.  The rev inscription ends in iota alpha which is an indiction year (year 11) from Carthage.  Specifically 547/8 AD.  Belisarius  took  Carthage for Justinian in 534 AD.  The early gold coinage from the newly recovered province was episodic, and struck in response to military requirements.  Cost:  1/3000 of the above nickel.  

 

 

 

 

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The view/reply ratio may vary a bit for different subjects (to what extent did the subject encourage or invite others to participate), and for different communities, but it's a universal of every message board that ever existed that lurkers outnumber participants by huge numbers. It's human nature.

 

Edited by Heliodromus
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3 hours ago, NewStyleKing said:

I have noticed that quite incredibly , my post "Provenance for me is nothing of true value" has racked up 2.6K views whilst having only 80 replies, probably mainly me!

I wonder what  it was  that attracted  them  and that the vast, vast majority  had  nothing to say?

Even my Roma XXVlll got  1K, 27 replies !  now  looking around, these  are  huge figures.

The replies minus mine, are often the same ol' crowd.

I long suspected that coin people  are a funny lot..secretive, insular, peculiar odd etc 

I mean I am amazed  that people obsess  over " CUDS"! A slight malfunction of the modern mass minting process, or a bit of grease got in the way....I mean, how banal! And the associated coins  are the "Beanie Baby" pointlessness of modern coins.

At least my coin failures  can be ascribed  to working under pressure  in ghastly conditions and  under  the lash!

 

 

N.S.K., I think 27 replies to a post on this website is impressive 😉. I've posted a number of topics that received fewer than a half dozen replies & have never felt disgruntled about it. People will respond to a post if they find it interesting or feel a need to respond. If someone sees a number of responses that express the same way he feels, he may not express the same thing for the sake of "piling on".

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I am reminded of a joke. 

A Byzantine coin collector is talking with a coin dealer.  He asks, “So, how many Byzantine coin collectors do you think there are?”

The dealer answers, “Including you?”

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1 hour ago, Hrefn said:

Assuming the business of numismatics is a reasonably efficient market, the price of individual coins is always correct.  Sellers who demand too high a price are unlikely to secure a sale, and sellers who price their goods too low quickly run out of inventory.  Even coins which are extremely scarce still require a willing buyer and a willing seller.  

This does not mean that everyone in the market will feel that every transaction is appropriately priced.  If fact, I think it means that most people will think the price is too high.  If the price were too low, there would be more intense competition for the goods, and the price would rise.  Some people would even buy goods they did not really want, to resell at a higher price, if that were easy to do.  

That means the coin below is appropriately priced at millions of dollars.

image.jpeg.d6b0316b04b8e4cf4ba70a79fbd2cafd.jpeg

It just is not worth millions of dollars to me.  Even if I had a billion dollars, I would not pay so much for it.   Nor would I spend big bucks on a Honus Wagoner baseball card.  Modern coins with cuds are completely uninteresting to me, and in a world populated by clones of me, they would command no premium at all.  But my interest, and funds, are not required to support that part of the market.

On the other hand, if I had millions to spend on coins, you might see a rise in the price of Greek dekadrachms, Roman gold multiples, high grade sestertiī, and Byzantine coins of all descriptions.  

I just purchased a coin of Emperor Louis the Pious, in beautiful condition.  There are 26 examples known to Depeyrot, the authority in the field.  My coin may even be the finest known.  Even after auction premium, shipping, currency conversion, and banking fees which add almost 50% to the hammer price, it will cost me less than $300.  The Liberty nickel is ten thousand times more expensive.

All of which is to say that anyone reading this forum probably collects something which, even amongst that limited segment of the population which has any interest in numismatics at all, would be considered highly specialized, even esoteric, and of limited appeal.  

For which, we should all be profoundly grateful.  Otherwise, we would be priced out of the market, and we could not buy coins like the one below.

image.png.f1e32763c20c54959c1b8972be5f26e3.pngimage.png.fd5446bae349840b546517b52fec7179.png

Solidus, Justinian the Great, of Carthage.  The rev inscription ends in iota alpha which is an indiction year (year 11) from Carthage.  Specifically 547/8 AD.  Belisarius  took  Carthage for Justinian in 534 AD.  The early gold coinage from the newly recovered province was episodic, and struck in response to military requirements.  Cost:  1/3000 of the above nickel.  

 

 

 

 

Hrefn, You make an interesting comparison with these two coins, & my interest in coins is very similar to yours. So now let's make an honest assessment of both coins ☺️. How many coin collectors would be interested in your rare &  historically important solidus 🤔, not many. So why are so many collectors interested in the 1913 Liberty Head Nickel, because it was one of 5 examples made illegally & has a scandalous history. Samuel Brown, a mint employee & coin collector showed one of these coins to members at the Chicago Coin Club in 1919, creating quite a stir among the members there. He later showed all 5 coins at the ANA convention in 1920. In 1924 Brown sold all 5 coins & they changed hands several more times until they ended up in the collection of millionaire  Colonel E.H.R. Green until his death in 1936. Green's estate was auctioned off including the 5 nickels that went to prominent  collectors. Every time one of these nickels sell It gets a lot of publicity & the value escalates. 

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IMHO debating whether provenance should add value to a coin is a bit like debating whether Greek or Roman coins are more interesting. The great thing about ancients is there are so many facets of a coin, and each is valued differently by every collector. With modern coins the majority of coins have standardized grading and you can look up the value of a coin given its grade in several different publications.

Ancients are far tougher to value because it's very difficult to predict what aspects of it will enhance value or detract in the opinions of the collectors in that market.

Therefore, a given provenance may bump the value of a coin, or it may not. Another coin without provenance may jump in price because two collectors love the patina, another because it has a great strike for the type, and yet another because it's a rare coin from a ruler with an interesting history.

So, there's not much benefit to debate provenance because your values are different from mine.

BTW, everyone knows Greek coins are more interesting, but please stick to Romans... 🙂

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5 hours ago, NewStyleKing said:

I have noticed that quite incredibly , my post "Provenance for me is nothing of true value" has racked up 2.6K views whilst having only 80 replies, probably mainly me!

I wonder what  it was  that attracted  them  and that the vast, vast majority  had  nothing to say?

Even my Roma XXVlll got  1K, 27 replies !  now  looking around, these  are  huge figures.

The replies minus mine, are often the same ol' crowd.

I long suspected that coin people  are a funny lot..secretive, insular, peculiar odd etc 

I mean I am amazed  that people obsess  over " CUDS"! A slight malfunction of the modern mass minting process, or a bit of grease got in the way....I mean, how banal! And the associated coins  are the "Beanie Baby" pointlessness of modern coins.

At least my coin failures  can be ascribed  to working under pressure  in ghastly conditions and  under  the lash!

 

 

As pointed out by John, the 2.6k views are not a reflection of unique individuals who have viewed the thread, but the total number of visits. For example, the "Posit it and pick it" thread has 4.4k replies and 131k views and of course nearly all of those views are coming from the same dozen or so people returning to post in that thread. So it's not possible, based on the replies/views numbers alone to say that "the vast, vast majority had nothing to say" in your thread.

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2 hours ago, Hrefn said:

Assuming the business of numismatics is a reasonably efficient market,

I think one of the joys of collecting ancients is that it's actually a horribly inefficient market! There are bargains to be had!

I guess the downsides are that as a seller your coins may not always get what they "should" (but sometimes the opposite too), and as a buyer you may be frustrated by being outbid by others who's knowledge of values appear to be lacking!

An efficient market would require most/all auctions to be attended by sufficient informed buyers that their pricing/value knowledge was determining prices, which is certainly not always the case!

 

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I can be very interested in a thread, read it and return to it when some new post is added. But, because I'm sometime short of interesting things to write, or because (as written above) what I could add would be redundant with what has already been said, or because I feel my level at english will not be sufficient to express something I would be more at ease to expressing in french, many times I stay silent...

I appreciate this forum immensely !

Q

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18 minutes ago, Qcumbor said:

I can be very interested in a thread, read it and return to it when some new post is added. But, because I'm sometime short of interesting things to write, or because (as written above) what I could add would be redundant with what has already been said, or because I feel my level at english will not be sufficient to express something I would be more at ease to expressing in french, many times I stay silent...

I appreciate this forum immensely !

Q

@Qcumbor, your English is superior to the writing of that of some of my college students who claim to be native English speakers. 

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36 minutes ago, Hrefn said:

@Qcumbor, your English is superior to the writing of that of some of my college students who claim to be native English speakers. 

Thanks, but that's not the point I wanted to express. I try to think and write directly in english in order to use "the tools" I have and deal with them. Sometimes, as these tools are not enough, I use my "french arsenal" which is hopefully richer, but then find it difficult to turn all the stuff into english 😉 

Thank you again for the kind words anyway

Q

Edited by Qcumbor
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I have a few posts that have had exactly 0 replies and less than 10 likes. Especially my medieval posts, for instance my post on a rare Venetian colonial coin for Greece, that has exactly 6 likes and 0 replies. At first it was a bit of a nuisance and I thought to myself why did I even bother, but then I remembered why I post: it's mainly for myself and because it helps me keep my thoughts clear about the things that I find interesting. And more importantly, you can't expect people to gravitate around the same things as you.

Edited by seth77
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I enjoyed the modern internet much more after I decided to ignore numbers.

Likes, reads, posts, rankings, etc., are all subject to the usual various interpretations, situations, and circumstances as just about everything else.

They are interesting, I'll admit, but they're nothing to take too seriously.

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@NewStyleKing; think a few other members already solved your riddle. I too often go back to older posts. For example the thread showing new additions, I really like going through the coins again, and again. I dont however go through some other threads a lot, which do seem popular, like some of the games, because I feel I can add little with my limited collection. Which is fine by me. And like @Qcumbor says, when your English is not your mother tongue, it's a bit more difficult. For me, to think of other words than 'beautiful' or 'very nice' when appreciating coins, is quite a challenge, so it seems a bit redundant to add something, if other members already said it. 

Then there's the issue: why does my post or topic, get fewer likes or replies than the other persons post or topic. Well, everyone should answer that for him/herself, but I think it comes down to personal interests and human nature. Everyone likes posts of our member Tiff, they are entertaining, funny, interesting, and the coins are sweet. Likewise, better quality coins like some post by some of our fortunate members, get more likes, than other coins. I can imagine its a bit annoying, as @seth77 also describes. But he also has the good point that you are doing the write ups or posts for yourself too. And also other people deserve thanks, and lesser coins deserve love. And maybe there's the other collector, you did not know about, but shares the same interest and you have a good connection with that person. It's all about quality, not quantity! 

Then there are people who may not reply, but view your posts, or throw out likes like there's no end to it! I really appreciate those views and likes, someone did think it was worth reading your words and appreciates the effort (special thanks to @airhead1983, in this case she comes to mind, because she always seem to like my coins! Thank you very much! 😁

Anyway, just some thoughts of mine, nothing more. 

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Another point is, the thread in question wasn't exactly one to garner pages and pages of responses. It was pretty much just the OP taking the outlier position that provenance has no value whatsoever. Most people disagreed and stated why. Where does the discussion go from there?

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18 minutes ago, CPK said:

Another point is, the thread in question wasn't exactly one to garner pages and pages of responses. It was pretty much just the OP taking the outlier position that provenance has no value whatsoever. Most people disagreed and stated why. Where does the discussion go from there?

I don't think it was the first such post either 🤣

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