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Hadrian, two very similar diassarion : why such a price difference ?


Qcumbor

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Hi friends

During the last Leu web auction 26 I've been very shocked to see the following Hadrian diassarion hammering at 4400 CHF + juice 

02390q00.jpg

https://leunumismatik.com/en/lot/42/2390

While less than a year ago, at the same venue (Leu web aution 20&21), I won the following Hadrian diassarion with a 45 CHF bid (both had the same 25 CHF starting price) :

02116q00.jpg

https://leunumismatik.com/en/lot/33/2116

 

I understand the difference might be in the expensive one being dated while mine is not. But with an "?" at the end of the obverse legend description, that seems uncertain even to Leu themselves (and from the auction review they emailed to their customers, it seems to me they were very surprised by the result aswell)

Yes, the one they just sold has a better centering, but has also been repatinated, while I find mine, with its earthen deposits, more appealing.

Mine is RPC III # 3419 with 30 examples, the last one is RPC III # 3423 with 8 examples. Not as if one would be found by the million and the other unique...

What happened there, other than two excited people hating each other enough ?

Am I a rich man ?
Is it time to sell Out ? (since I'm not collecting for profit the question is purely rhetorical 😄 )

Do any of you have similar experiences of two very similar coins (description, general appearence, preservation, whatever) with such a huge difference in price (x 98 in that case) ?

Please post'em (that way or hte other (Hopfully in the same way as me... 🙂 ))

Q

Edited by Qcumbor
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  • Qcumbor changed the title to Hadrian, two very similar diassarion : why such a price difference ?

One bidder was willing to pay 620 CHF, another one 4200 CHF, and one bought it for 4400 CHF...
That makes 0 sense to me.
I see no reasion why the coin should be worth more than 50$.

Maybe it was pure coincidence: One bidder really wanted the coin, he wanted to enter 50.00 CHF but forgot a very essential "." while entering his prebid. Or something like that. Then there is the question, how the second really high bid appeared. Another coincidence, I assume. 
And the third really high bid of 620 CHF... 

Ok, I'm out - no explanation 😶

Edited by Salomons Cat
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That's an amazing  difference.

I was staggered at these 2 coins selling a couple of days apart, both at  very high profile auctions,  NAC and the Hurter Nomos (May this year). The better (who's to say, but  higher "rated" and  rather less bent) coin went for  half of the price of the other. Same week. This  is nothing though when compared with your example @Qcumbor!

1900 and 4000CHF respectively for a  Leontini litra. (Always makes me thing I'm missing something, and  I usually am,  but from r numis the more expensive one is more common too.)

 

3982859-1680796763_orig.jpg.07d6fe717edfddfb848f91847a550cb7.jpgimage00136.png.f4e39c89eb1610d6585dfdf6ff9218e2.png

 

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There are pretty frequently high prices realized that make no sense to me. Consider this recent CNG Constans AE2 galley:
https://auctions.cngcoins.com/lots/view/4-9TK3IA/constans-ad-337-350-centenionalis-22mm-546-g-6h-antioch-mint-6th-officina-struck-ad-348-350-ef

It supposedly hammered at $1200 ($1440 including fees) after hammering at $400 in a 2018 CNG sale. 

I know that top coins bring a substantial premium, but there are 55 of that galley type on vcoins right now, so it is quite common, and several nice ones under $100. 

Or, how about this Byzantine Class I anonymous follis for $275?
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=7706790

Here is one which I think is better. I bought it last year for less than 1/10 of that price, including shipping (pro-rated)!
image.jpeg.38d055b3ce0e518ca73aff90e8b95268.jpeg



 

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The toughest race I have experienced myself was at a Stacks & Bowers auction. A Domitian Minerva RIC type, which I have bought myself several times for the shop for around 200-300 euros... two bidders fought a battle to 5,500 USD! 

I tried for almost an hour to see - if this type has any special feature to my same RIC-types, but I could not see anything. Even a Flavier professional could not see anything special about the Stack & Bowers Domitian. Ok, it was in extremely good condition. Maybe even Mint State. But ok, then instead of 200-300 euros, let's make this type cost 1,000 euros because of its condition! But in the end 5,500 USD? 

But, if two bidders want something.

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3 hours ago, Salomons Cat said:

One bidder was willing to pay 620 CHF, another one 4200 CHF, and one bought it for 4400 CHF...
That makes 0 sense to me.

And cherry on the cake, the 4400 CHF bid was placed when the winning bid was still 25 CHF.
Is it big fingers on a keyboard ?

But then, why would someone else bid 4200 CHF just before the closing ?
I'm puzzled !!

We (I at least) must miss something important about it 😄 

Q

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33 minutes ago, Qcumbor said:

But then, why would someone else bid 4200 CHF just before the closing ?
I'm puzzled !!

Yep. This is the part that I find very, very strange...
I wonder what the maximum bid was 😀

I think that we can also exclude a technical error such as delay in refreshing the website during the auction. There was no coin of similar value before or after that Hadrian.

Edited by Salomons Cat
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Honestly I doubt the auction house or the consigner will see any money from this sale. The price is absolutely ridiculous, and the high bidder is very unlikely to actually pay, regardless of whether the bid was intentional. I knew a guy who used to bid few times the realistic estimate on literally every coin he wanted. He won them often but rarely paid the bills. Obviously he was banned from the auctions but immediately registered new accounts with fake addresses and kept doing that for years! I didn't hear from him for a while so I don't know if he continues with this habit. 

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4400CHF is nothing to some people: analogous to the amount you or I might spend on a decent meal.

Someone like that might put down a big bid for a number of reasons that wouldn’t make sense to someone on a budget: the portrait looks like my uncle Jim… cool, it’s dated… I like the color, etc. Two people like that and you get results like the OP.

That is truly a crazy hammer though! Nice coin btw Q!

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7 hours ago, Factor said:

I knew a guy who used to bid few times the realistic estimate on literally every coin he wanted.

I understand that. But should there be one guy like that, even with a 4400 CHF bid the hammer price would be around something acceptable, e.g. x2 or x3 starting price + bid increment. Why not.

Here we have at least three people bidding from x25 to x175 the starting price....

Q

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The only thing that would make sense to me:
This coin received an unreasonably high starting bid, for whatever reason. Broad fingers, a rich guy, whatever. Someone knew what the maximum bid was and wanted to sell the coin for as much as possible, so during the last minutes a few bids below the maximum bid were added with different accounts. But that would be quite an accusation. 

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10 minutes ago, Limes said:

In cases like this, I pull out this well known Haiku (which should be printed in auction catalogues, I'd say!):

auctions are easy
but sometimes they don't make sense
refrigerator

I agree. I was also quite hesitant with posting that thought that I had because I cannot imagine it. And I think that your explanation makes more sense 😄 Great poetry

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I just noticed that we received a Leu Newsletter on Saturday where they listed a few surprising results, this Hadrian included 🙂
The other hammers that they mentioned were:

- a 1/96 stater of Phanes that reached 5200 CHF (lot 1112),
an anonymous Roman tessera that fetched 4,200 CHF (lot 4288)
a Byzantine-Armenian that costed 10,500 CHF (lot 5910)
-
a chrysos of Ezanas sold for 9,500 CHF (lot 5973)

Interesting! I wished that we would know the answer to this riddle 😂 
I was considering some kind of insider trading earlier but this is more than unlikely... I assume that Leu would have already noticed if all of these coins were from the same consignor.

We will probably not find out - I will try to accept it... 😄

Edited by Salomons Cat
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