What is your Unpopular [non-US coin] Numismatic Opinion

[ewomack]

I'm not sure if these are controversial, but they are opinions that I usually keep to myself.

1. I hate the money side of coin collecting in general. The hobby, especially the more celebrated side of it (the high end, gold and rarities), remain almost completely closed off to many people. I can only take part at all because I have some discretionary income. Numismatics does take research and knowledge, but to have a revered collection, one needs, first and foremost, a lot of money. High-end collections are closed off by income limitations. I hate that part of this hobby. This is something I've noticed since I was collecting worn flat liberty nickels as a child. So it goes, of course, but it still frustrates me.

2. Perhaps related, I greatly prefer the historical, aesthetic and sociological side of collecting over chasing after value or rarity. Rare coins have never impressed me. Filling holes bores me. When collectors appear to be hoarding indiscriminately it makes me recoil. I have enjoyed reading scholarly numismatic articles far more than anything in the "coin press," where much fuss over value and rarity seem to reign. I want to hold coins that people may have actually used, that circulated amongst the crowd. So I tend to prefer obols, bronzes and smaller fare (though I admittedly do look for nicer samples, but affordable ones). Coins that sat in vaults for generations served a monetary purpose as "stored value," but they seem more like caged animals than wild animals. I understand why they interest some people, but I don't find them particularly exciting.

3. Coin collecting in general seems to have done little to attract women to the hobby. The culture around coin collecting generally feels very "male locker room" to me when I attend shows or clubs. The vast majority of women who I have brought to coin shows have told me that they felt this way. I would like to see more balance in the hobby. Things have improved over the years, but the hobby could go further, especially if it's worried about its future.

4. Getting kids involved in collecting is irrelevant to the future of the hobby. It's become overall an adult hobby that requires an adult income. Those who worry about the future of the hobby should worry when middle aged people with money stop coming to shows and spending money. It will truly die when that demographic loses interest. The correlation of being interested in coins as a child and maintaining or reigniting interest as an adult seems tenuous at best.

I'm not sure if those are controversial or not. Maybe to some people. Regardless, they are just opinions. I would never rant, fight, or dig my heels in about any of them.

Edited February 1, 2023 by ewomack

[Kali]

6 minutes ago, Romancollector said:

Here it goes.....

3. I would prefer that people who lack a background in ancient history, whether it's formal (education) or informal (personal interest), stay away from ancients.

That's a B.S. comment. Ancient coins are sometimes used for educational use & I love reading stories on collectors who had a teacher that used a numismatic item as a teaching tool.

I know I have learned a lot more about ancient history, thanks to ancient coinage. I continue to learn more each year and I've been collecting ancients for over 25 years.

[Edessa]

I very much dislike the way buyer's fees have increased. With the exception of a very small handful of highly reputable auction houses, I don't think you get squat for your 20-22% fee from the others. Based on the number of fakes in auctions, the lack of concern in proper attribution and the lack of customer service in most of these cases, I believe these firms are employing high school kids who happen to be off-term at the moment. I worked for a major oil company and we did the same thing in the summer to help organize our archival file system. Those youngsters were extremely efficient in coding, but they had no idea of the context of the material they were working with. Somebody is making a lot of money, but it's not the consigners.

[Sol_Invictus]

Apparently these opinions are controversial 🙂:

 

1.  I don’t own an Athenian owl tetradrachm, but I would love to get one if I could afford it. I think they’re stunningly beautiful and incredibly interesting! I find it amazing to consider that these were made and exchanged in such vast numbers that peoples around the Mediterranean continued to copy their designs hundreds of years after they were no longer produced, and a large number of these coins have survived to this day.

 

2. I love Chinese bronze cash coins! It’s amazing to me that this basic coin design persisted in China for over two thousand years, and that people who can read Chinese characters can still read and understand the characters on these coins from 300 BCE. I find the different styles of calligraphy fascinating and beautiful.

[Severus Alexander]

45 minutes ago, Kali said:

That's a B.S. comment. Ancient coins are sometimes used for educational use & I love reading stories on collectors who had a teacher that used a numismatic item as a teaching tool.

I know I have learned a lot more about ancient history, thanks to ancient coinage. I continue to learn more each year and I've been collecting ancients for over 25 years.

I'm betting @Romancollector meant to include these things under "informal (personal interest)." 🙂 

 

[Severus Alexander]

4 hours ago, David Atherton said:

Archival safe plastic flips are rubbish. They are brittle, easily wear out, expensive, non traditional, and ugly.

4 hours ago, David Atherton said:

It goes without saying that the softer non archival safe plastic flips are rubbish too. But that's a given. 😉

And then @CPK does a good job summarizing the negatives of paper flips, cardboard holders, and trays. So what are we to do? Throw our hands in the air and give up? Put our coins in a sock? 😲

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned them before, but I've found Guardhouse archival vinyl flips to be an excellent choice. Yes, they're more rigid than non-archival vinyl flips, but they're safe for coins, and they're WAY sturdier and easier to use than the various non-vinyl flips like saflips etc.  Try them!

Edited February 1, 2023 by Severus Alexander

[velarfricative]

Mine is that the most interesting coins are the ones we know the least about, which is definitely controversial; the more I know about the history behind a ruler, the less I want to collect it.

Edited February 1, 2023 by velarfricative

[CPK]

25 minutes ago, Severus Alexander said:

And then @CPK does a good job summarizing the negatives of papers flips, cardboard holders, and trays. So what are we to do? Throw our hands in the air and give up? Put our coins in a sock? 😲

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned them before, but I've found Guardhouse archival vinyl flips to be an excellent choice. Yes, they're more rigid than non-archival vinyl flips, but they're safe for coins, and they're WAY sturdier and easier to use than the various non-vinyl flips like saflips etc.  Try them!

^That's the kind I always use. I wasn't aware that other brands differed significantly.

[David Atherton]

28 minutes ago, Severus Alexander said:

And then @CPK does a good job summarizing the negatives of papers flips, cardboard holders, and trays. So what are we to do? Throw our hands in the air and give up? Put our coins in a sock? 😲

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned them before, but I've found Guardhouse archival vinyl flips to be an excellent choice. Yes, they're more rigid than non-archival vinyl flips, but they're safe for coins, and they're WAY sturdier and easier to use than the various non-vinyl flips like saflips etc.  Try them!

 

If viewing coins through plastic is OK with you, we will have to agree to disagree. I prefer seeing them in hand. At least paper envelopes encourages me to handle my coins more often! 😉

[Romancollector]

1 hour ago, Kali said:

That's a B.S. comment. Ancient coins are sometimes used for educational use & I love reading stories on collectors who had a teacher that used a numismatic item as a teaching tool.

I know I have learned a lot more about ancient history, thanks to ancient coinage. I continue to learn more each year and I've been collecting ancients for over 25 years.

As @Severus Alexander suggested, I don't think you quite understood my comment. I said formal or informal background. Contrary to what you have surmised, I think that coins are fantastic educational tools. 

[Severus Alexander]

9 minutes ago, CPK said:

^That's the kind I always use. I wasn't aware that other brands differed significantly.

The non-vinyl alternatives I've tried have all been way too brittle.

3 minutes ago, David Atherton said:

If viewing coins through plastic is OK with you, we will have to agree to disagree. I prefer seeing them in hand. At least paper envelopes encourages me to handle my coins more often! 😉

But you can take them out of the archival vinyl flips too, David! 😜 Joking - I realize you find it easier to take them out of paper flips, and this is definitely true compared to the non-vinyl flips I've tried. It's also somewhat true for the Guardhouse archival vinyl flips, but less so. I find being able to see the coin through the flip more than makes up for it. Also easier to display them in trays with all their info included.

But as @Steve would say, atta boy! you enjoy your paper! 😁

[DonnaML]

1 hour ago, ewomack said:

3. Coin collecting in general seems to have done little to attract women to the hobby. The culture around coin collecting generally feels very "male locker room" to me when I attend shows or clubs. The vast majority of women who I have brought to coin shows have told me that they felt this way. I would like to see more balance in the hobby. Things have improved over the years, but the hobby could go further, especially if it's worried about its future.

I would certainly like to see more balance in the hobby too! And I admit that one of the reasons I've never attended a coin club, and that the NYINC is the only coin show I go to, is that my extreme minority status in the hobby (it seems there are more women dealers than customers) is glaringly obvious at in-person events. Much more so than online. Which makes me very self-conscious. But I can deal with it once a year, so I try not to think about it too much, and focus on all the beautiful coins. And it's not as if anyone has ever been disrespectful or treated me like I'm a nuisance -- or tried to take advantage of me as if I were there to get my car fixed -- especially once I demonstrate that I have at least some idea what I'm doing.

I wish I had a magic solution to attract more women to the hobby. I don't.  None of my female friends has the slightest interest in it, and I almost never mention it. It's really all sort of a self-perpetuating cycle, isn't it? Although there are plenty of women who collect art -- including ancient art -- to whatever extent they can afford to do so, and have an interest in ancient history and literature. And it seems to me that there also plenty of women in academia in those areas, as well as in the worlds of archaeology and museums. Including quite a decent number who study numismatics. So I don't think there's any insurmountable sociological gender barrier inherent to the subject matter. (Unlike, say, collecting baseball cards and World War II comics vs. collecting antique china dolls and shepherdesses!) But obviously there's a gender imbalance in having the necessary disposable income available to collect coins. So I do think that a lesser general focus on the "big money" aspects of the hobby, as others have advocated, and a greater focus on the fact that it's possible to own attractive pieces of ancient art for not all that much money, might help in this area as well.

 

[AussieCollector]

Unpopular opinion - provenance is not all that important. I just don't think it is, other than as an indicator of authenticity.

Also to all those who said Athens Owls aren't that interesting, how dare you!

[seth77]

1. I think that opinions predicting the end of coin-collecting are misguided and are usually based on a very poor attitude towards the younger generations. At the same time, relying on internet information for your numismatic study is never shallow or 'amateurish', not with all the available works in places like jstor or academia etc. I have hundreds of titles that would've otherwise been unreachable in the real world, some for being very old, some for being out of print, some for just the very small number that were printed and so on. Using the new media available does not make a numismatist or a collector less serious.

2. I always prefer a combination of special interest-rarity-historical connections to condition quality. I find it odd that collectors in bidding wars over regular Severan denarii in 'aUNC' condition vent about the market being this and that the same month that they dropped 600EUR on a common Septimius Severus denarius from Rome. I also think that there is a certain snobbery to despising lower condition material, but I am the last to complain about it, because I find it very useful.

3. I think that the 'unofficial' AE coins of the 318-320s are, like the previous types, the so-called 'limes falsa', and the cast provincials from Moesia and Thracia, to be a form of notgeld made and used at a time later than the imperial effigy would suggest, in semi-official capacity, done by local authorities to alleviate a penury of small change, which is usually related to conflict and border instability. Using earlier effigies and making sure that the new coin is not meant to defraud by sticking to base metal and making sure that is evident, assured that the municipalities or other institutions that were involved in these coinages are not to be liable under the laws against counterfeiting. In a similar manner, I think that the imitations of the denier tournois in the 14th century Greece and then the larger Balkan area and on the Danube is more than a sum of counterfeiting operations and in time certain types that are coherent and can be classified together as issues of a specific coinage will be tied to certain minting centers in the Balkans an/or on the Danube like it has happened with the Catalan and the Florentine immobilizations of the Duchy of Athens, so well into the 15th century.

4. I can't keep to just one 'focus' and search for 'missing links' to the end of the world. In medieval numismatics with all the political turmoil and changes in the form and interests in the local minting polities, a lot of issues will probably never become available, or at least not to a regular collector. More areas of interest keep the mind busy on new learning curves, which in turn keeps interest alive and adds to the satisfaction one gathers from entering and gaining in a new but adjacent intellectual field.

5. I think dating is the single most important aspect of the study of numismatics. I get frustrated sometimes when niche articles regarding medieval issues don't dwell on trying to narrow the dating for the coinages they discuss. To a lesser extent I tend to cringe when an auction house with 20% fees does not discriminate between the Louises Kings of France or between the Foulques of Anjou or between a lifetime issue of Amalric of Jerusalem and the later 'mauvais' imitations from the 13th century.

Edited February 4, 2023 by seth77

[Steppenfool]

Postumus did nothing wrong and his coinage reflects the beauty of his soul.

Philip and Decius's reigns are an under appreciated golden age of Roman Imperial coinage.

Julian's bull reverse was the last interesting Roman Imperial coin.

Byzantine coinage is objectively ugly, to deny this is to be an aesthetic antirealist.

If the mythological interpretation of Constantine's DAFNE coinage is correct (which I believe it is), then it is one of the most significant coins ever produced.

Hobbyists regular reluctance to explicitly mention the price of their purchases is a loss for the community. It helps to be aware what experienced collectors consider good value!

A lot of dealers don't put enough effort into their listing. If I'm prepared to drop a few hundred pounds on a coin I expect a detailed attribution and some historical context. I've seen £5000 aurei listed with one line of text in the description.

[Roman Collector]

1 hour ago, seth77 said:

I always prefer a combination of special interest-rarity-historical connections to condition quality. I find it odd that collectors in bidding wars over regular Severan denarii in 'aUNC' condition vent about the market being this and that the same month that they dropped 600EUR on a common Septimius Severus denarius from Rome. I also think that there is a certain snobbery to despising lower condition material, but I am the last to complain about it, because I find it very useful.

[Restitutor]

10 hours ago, Kali said:

That's a B.S. comment. Ancient coins are sometimes used for educational use & I love reading stories on collectors who had a teacher that used a numismatic item as a teaching tool.

I know I have learned a lot more about ancient history, thanks to ancient coinage. I continue to learn more each year and I've been collecting ancients for over 25 years.

Let’s remember to keep it civil 🙂 It is an “unpopular opinion” thread after all (regardless of misunderstanding). 

[Restitutor]

1 hour ago, Steppenfool said:

Postumus did nothing wrong and his coinage reflects the beauty of his soul. 

It is pretty crazy just how nice his coins are when you consider he falls into the “usurper” category. This one used on his Wiki page is just, wow 😍 Imagine being the lucky person who got to hold it…

 

[AETHER]

Late Roman Coins, I ignore them like the plague 

[Ryro]

I don't actually think this is unpopular. Putting your coins in plastic, long term, is gross, looks tacky, and despite what they may claim can do damage to your coin (also stops toning and patination from occurring). Putting pieces of metalic artistry and history that have survived since 1,700-2,600 years in brittle pieces of plastic is tantamount to getting a date (remember we don't keep these coins, we only take care of them for a while) with a super model and having her hop on the back of your bicycle to peddle her to McDonald's. After the date you take her to your mom's basement to make it. She may actually be into it at first, but then she realizes her worth and jumps out of your arms and collection and into those of a fella that will treat her right. 

But like everyone says, "Ryro, whatchagonnado???"

I'll tell you. Get inventive. Build. 

Pony up a small amount of dough. Buy an ugly old cabinet if you don't have three laying around in your garage. Get some lacquer to make it look pretty again. Building trays is easy and cheap if you don't want to buy them. Drill a few holes to put multiple trays in a single drawer. 

I do not have lots of MAD money to just go buy a brand new curio cabinet. However for the price of a ho-hum Drachm or two and less than half a days work I am not storing my coins in cardboard or plastic:

 

[Ryro]

10 hours ago, Severus Alexander said:

"But as @Steve would say, atta boy! you enjoy your paper! 😁"

Yeah, but I thought he was talking about preferring smoking bongs over joints.

[Steve]

Nice => there are some great unlikeable-comments in this thread, gang ... well done!!

😉

Ummm, I like "most" ancient coins ... but I will always choose an animal-reverse, or an animal hiding "somewhere" on a coin, over a coin without an animal 

=> Animal coins rock!!

😎

Cheers, coiners

[Jay GT4]

My unpopular opinion is that fake desert "patina" is not a big deal.  It's usually pretty easy to tell in hand if it's 2000 year old dirt or 20 minute old dirt.  In fact it shouldn't be called patina at all, in both instances, it's just dirt.  The underlying coin is (usually) real and the dirt highlights the coin.  It can be removed quite easily.  I don't pay a premium for the applied dirt, but I don't see why people get all bent out of shape about it.  Some of my coins have old dirt, some have new dirt, doesn't bother me in the slightest.  I do wish dealers would call it earthen deposits, which is more accurate.  

Edited February 1, 2023 by Jay GT4

[Phil Davis]

Unpopular/controversial A: Octavian is, next to Sulla, the least appealing person in Roman history.

Unpopular/controversial B: Julius Caesar is the most appealing!

Edited February 1, 2023 by Phil Davis

[kapphnwn]

My least popular comments

Probably for some in this community would be my comment "  Your Alexander __________ is from________ and is posthumous." AUUUGH Don't feel too bad I do it to myself all the time.  Other than that my opinion on coffins oooops I should have said slabs .