CPK Posted June 25, 2022 · Supporter Share Posted June 25, 2022 (edited) Well ever since reading this thread I have been really interested in the various calligraphy styles on these coins, especially those of the Northern Song dynasty. I finally got the descriptions/photos finished (full disclosure: I cheated and used the dealer's photos.) I already had a cash coin minted under Tai Zong, the second emperor of the Song dynasty, in regular script. I just love the beautiful tone, wear, and patina on this coin: To this I have added the following - Another Tai Zong cash, with the inscription in the graceful Grass script: Jumping ahead a few rulers, we come to the unfortunate and short-lived Ying Zong. The 5th Emperor in the Northern Song Dynasty, Ying Zong was both physically and mentally unwell, and died after reigning only 4 years. This coin showcases Li script: Ying Zong's son Shen Zong then took the throne. Shen Zong undertook a series of famous reforms called the "New Policies" aimed at alleviating the hardships of the peasantry and the unemployed. This coin is a two-cash, larger than the others, with Seal script characters: Shen Zong's son Zhe Zong became the next emperor (although as he was only nine years old at the time, his grandmother ruled as regent for a time.) This coin features the swift, flowing, and aptly-named Running script: And finally we get to Hui Zong, the half-brother of Zhe Zong who succeeded him when Zhe Zong died of illness in 1100. Of course Hui Zong was not only a famous patron of the arts, but he was also the skilled painter, poet, and calligraphist who invented the beautiful "Slender Gold" script: . Edited June 25, 2022 by CPK 8 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severus Alexander Posted July 20, 2022 · Supporter Share Posted July 20, 2022 I posted an Ilkhan piece above, of Arghun... but just a short while ago I won a coin that greatly outdoes it, this huge 30mm 6-dinar coin of Öljaitü, and thought of this thread: AH 703-716 / AD 1304-1316. AR Six Dirhams (30mm, 11.85 g, 2h). Type C. Jurjan mint. Dated AH 714 (AD 1314/5). With additional obverse marginal legend and expanded central reverse inscription. Diler 371; Album 2187A. Minor doubling on obv. [This is CNG's description. I'm not actually sure they've got the mint right, though... it seems a better match for this coin from Madinat Amul.) Wow, that's a lot of text to fit on one coin - not sure I've ever seen so much! I can't wait to see this humongous thing in hand. Another reason I wanted it was for its historical significance. This coin is a special issue with the following added verse of the Qu'ran: You can see the translation at the above link, but basically it discusses the believers, inclusive of followers of the Torah and Gospel (both referred to by name!) obtaining their just rewards. The title of the surah ("The Victory") and its date of issue (1314/15) is also very significant: I believe it signals Öljaitü's intention to cooperate with Europe to drive out his Mamluk enemies. The coin was issued in small numbers right at the culmination of Öljaitü trying to negotiate with western leaders like Pope Clement V, Edward I and II of England, and Philip IV to undertake an alliance with the Ilkhan Mongols against their common enemy in Egypt, the Mamluk sultans, offering the Holy Land to the Europeans in exchange. (Incidentally, Öljaitü also married a daughter of Andronicus II and allied with him against the rising Ottomans.) The coin was issued right at the time a crusade led by Clement V, Philip IV, and others was meant to finally happen, in concert with the Mongols... except Clement V died, Philip got cold feet, and Eddy II got a double whammy from Robert the Bruce at Bannockburn and The Great Famine, all in 1314/15. Everything fizzled out and Öljaitü was disappointed. A real "what if" moment in world history! And this coin represents it perfectly. (It also symbolizes Öljaitü's religious ecumenicism... he was baptised by a Christian mother, raised Buddhist, converted to Islam – following both Sunni and Shi'a at different times – and even practiced traditional Mongol Tengriism to some extent. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DLTcoins Posted July 20, 2022 · Member Share Posted July 20, 2022 (edited) @Severus Alexander The mint name is indeed Jurjan (جرجان), inner margin on reverse, anticlockwise from 12 o'clock, followed by the date written out in words. Quite a coin! Edited July 20, 2022 by DLTcoins 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severus Alexander Posted July 21, 2022 · Supporter Share Posted July 21, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, DLTcoins said: @Severus Alexander The mint name is indeed Jurjan (جرجان), inner margin on reverse, anticlockwise from 12 o'clock, followed by the date written out in words. Quite a coin! Thank you, @DLTcoins! I think I've highlighted the mint name and "fourteen" (something like "arba 'ashrat") on my coin below; and those parts match the Sincona coin. Have I got it right? I'm thinking that since my mint name is short, the next compartment counterclockwise is just decorative; not sure what the word is in the next (third) compartment. I've found Album's descriptions and the acsearch images to be a bit confusing. In the next images and all the descriptions I've presented the coins with the obverse and reverse switched from my previous post because that's how Album presents them in his auctions and (I think) how he describes them in his list. There appear to be at least five different configurations of A-2187 if we include two mules: Confusingly, in his checklist Album doesn't mention that the reverse marginal legend is "extended" on 2187A, he just says "the reverse margin bears the names of the Shi'ite Imams together with their epithets." But that implies it's extended, I think, because the standard legend includes only their names, not their epithets. Yes? One reason I'm not sure is that the coin in the second row is an Album auction coin, and it's described by him as 2187A... except the marginal legend is the standard one! Confusing. I think that in fact it's a reduced version of a 2187A reverse, with the extended field legend, but not the extended margin legend. Here's what he says about 2187A in his checklist: "The obverse outer margin is Qur'an 48:29, in which the actions of a good Muslim are described. The reverse margin bears the names of the Shi'ite Imams together with their epithets... Mulings of types 2187 and 2187A also exist (R)." (There's also 2187B in the catalogue: "similar to 2187A, but very carefully struck and with Qur'an 9:112 in the obverse margin, Baghdad 716 only." I take it the Sincona coin and my coin are NOT versions of this for Jurjan?) I'll go direct to Steve if need be, but if you can clear up my confusion, @DLTcoins, I'd be enormously grateful! And whatever the case may be, I'm pretty darn pleased with this new coin. 😊 Edited July 21, 2022 by Severus Alexander 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DLTcoins Posted July 21, 2022 · Member Share Posted July 21, 2022 (edited) @Severus Alexander I think I understand. First, the inner marginal legend with mint and date actually begins at 2 o'clock: duriba / Jurjan / fi / sanat / arba' / 'ashr wa / seb'miat. I'm pretty sure the funky "decorative" segment is intended as fi (في). It is more clearly so on the Sincona coin. Now unraveling the types. The obverse (by Steve's reckoning) is the side with the mint and date formula. The center area contains the ruler's name and titles. The outer margin on 2187A is Qur'an 48:29. At reverse center is an "expanded" Shiite kalima. In the margin are the names of the 12 Shiite Imams with their epithets. The "standard" type C (2187) lacks the extra obverse margin and on the reverse names the 12 Imams without their epithets. I would describe the 2nd coin above as a mule. In the Checkist, the mules are subsumed in the description of 2187A, therefore they are correctly catalogued as such. So, the first coin has the short version of both sides. Type 2187. The second coin has the extra obverse margin, so 2187A, even though the reverse lacks the epithets. The third row, Sincona and you, are full examples of the "classic" 2187A. The last row are mules, so also 2187A, because that's where the mules are mentioned. I would take 2187B exactly as Steve describes it, Baghdad 716 only. I've been disappointed that there hasn't been more discussion of Islamic coins here. Thanks for sharing! Edited July 21, 2022 by DLTcoins 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severus Alexander Posted July 21, 2022 · Supporter Share Posted July 21, 2022 23 minutes ago, DLTcoins said: @Severus Alexander I think I understand. First, the inner marginal legend with mint and date actually begins at 2 o'clock: duriba / Jurjan / fi / sanat / arba' / 'ashr wa / seb' miat. I'm pretty sure the funky "decorative" segment is intended as fi (في). It is more clearly so on the Sincona coin. Now unraveling the types. The obverse (by Steve's reckoning) is the side with the mint and date formula. The center area contains the ruler's name and titles. The outer margin on 2187A is Qur'an 48:29. At reverse center is an "expanded" Shiite kalima. In the margin are the names of the 12 Shiite Imams with their epithets. The "standard" type C (2187) lacks the extra obverse margin and on the reverse names the 12 Imams without their epithets. I would describe the 2nd coin above as a mule. In the Checkist, the mules are subsumed in the description of 2187A, therefore they are correctly catalogued as such. So, the first coin has the short version of both sides. Type 2187. The second coin has the extra obverse margin, so 2187A, even though the reverse lacks the epithets. The third row, Sincona and you, are full examples of the "classic" 2187A. The last row are mules, so also 2187A, because that's where the mules are mentioned. I would take 2187B exactly as Steve describes it, Baghdad 716 only. I've been disappointed that there hasn't been more discussion of Islamic coins here. Thanks for sharing! A thorough answer that clears up my confusions perfectly, thank you @DLTcoins! Do you agree with my historical interpretation, that this coin is probably somehow linked with Öljaitü's efforts to ally with western Europeans at this time? The carefully struck examples, at least, were surely presentation pieces. One wonders who received them. I too would like to see more discussion of Islamic coins. I'm sure once the ball gets rolling... Feel free to pm me if there's a post that needs more attention. (I hasten to add I am a generalist and my knowledge of Islamic coins isn't remotely commensurate with my strong interest, sadly. The language/script barrier is pretty huge, I still have to struggle along by consulting the Plant book. It's wonderful to have your assistance, but I also wouldn't want you to feel burdened by reading coins for everyone!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thenickelguy Posted September 13, 2022 · Member Share Posted September 13, 2022 (edited) Fairly common but I like the patina China Tartar-Jin Dynasty One Cash 1158 - 1161 Hartill 18.40 Edited September 13, 2022 by thenickelguy 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanxi Posted September 13, 2022 · Supporter Share Posted September 13, 2022 Two more from the same dynasty: Shi Zong 世宗 Obv: Da Ding Tong Bao, 大定通寶 Rev: Shen 申 for the year 1188 AE, 3.13g, 24mm Ref: Hartill 18.44, FD1642, S1088 Shi Zong 世宗 Obv: Da Ding Tong Bao, 大定通寶 R3v: You 酉 for teh year 1189 AE, 3.37g, 25mm Ref.: Hartill 18.47, FD1643, S1089 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quant.geek Posted November 8, 2022 · Member Share Posted November 8, 2022 I like the iron cash coins, even though, they are usually rough... Imperial China, Northern Song: Da Guan (1107-1110) FE 2 Cash (Hartill-16.422) Obv: 大觀通寶 Da Guan tong bao Rev: Blank Dim: 8.15g Imperial China, Ch'ing Dynasty: Xian Feng (1851-1861) FE 50 Cash, Board of Revenue, Peking (Hartill-22.702) Obv: 咸豐重寶 Xian Feng zhong bao Rev: Numbers for denomination above and below, mint left and right in Manchu; 當十五 ᠪᠣᠣ ᠴᡠᠸᠠᠨ; Dang wushi (Value Fifty) Boo chiowan 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtisimo Posted November 8, 2022 · Supporter Share Posted November 8, 2022 Some very cool coins in this thread. I am far from knowledgeable in the area but I do have some examples showing Chinese calligraphy. Ancient China Qin to Western Han AE Ban Liang, cast ca. 220-180 BC Wt.: 4.62 g Dia.: 27 mm Obv.: Ban Liang Rev.: Blank as made Ref.: Hartill 7.8 Ex Sallent Collection, Ex AMCC 2, Lot 372 (Nov. 9, 2019) Ancient China Xin Dynasty Emperor Wang Mang (AD 7 - 23) Huo bu spade. Dim.: 57 mm x 22.5 mm Wt.: 16.09 g Obv.: HUO BU (“Money spade”). Rev.: Blank, as made. Ref.: Hartill 9.30 Ex Sallent collection Ancient China, Song Dynasty Emperor Song Huizong (AD 1100 - 1125) AE 2 Cash Dia.: 31 mm Wt.: 8.35 g Obv.: Xuan He tong bao. Rev.: Blank Ref.: Hartill 16.476 Ex Ken Dorney 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanxi Posted November 10, 2022 · Supporter Share Posted November 10, 2022 On 11/8/2022 at 11:07 PM, quant.geek said: I like the iron cash coins, even though, they are usually rough... I always find it amazing that they still exist at all. Here ar two from the Tang Dynasty Obv: Kai Yuan Tong Bao 開元通寶 Yuan with right shoulder Rev: blank Material: iron, 3.71g, 25.3mm Ref.: Hartill 14.10 var. Obv: Kai Yuan Tong Bao 開元通寶 Rev: Crescent moon top Material: iron, 3.40g, 25.5mm 6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quant.geek Posted November 10, 2022 · Member Share Posted November 10, 2022 Oh, those are really nice for iron cash coins! I have rarely seen these types in that state of preservation... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanxi Posted November 11, 2022 · Supporter Share Posted November 11, 2022 20 hours ago, quant.geek said: in that state of preservation... Not all are so nice. It depends on the oxide. The preservation is much better when the black Fe3O4 is formed and not the red Fe2O3. Here are a few more: Kingdom: Chu, 楚 Emperor: Ma Yin 馬殷 Obv: Qian Feng Quan Bao 乾封泉寶 Rev: Ce, 策 Year: from 925 Material: Iron, 18.71g, 38.9mm Ref.: Hartill 15.63, FD 797 Northern Song Emperor: Taizu, 太祖 Obv: Song Yuan Tong Bao 宋元通寶 Rev: empty Value: 1 Year: after 970 Material: iron, 3.23g, 23mm Ref.: Hartill 16.5, FD858, S459 Southern Song Emperor: Ning Zong 寧宗 Mint: Hanyang, Hubei Obv: Kai Xi Tong Bao 開 禧 通 寶 Rev: Han 漢 (top), San, 三 3 (bottom). Value: 2 Year: 1207 Material: iron, 5.93g, 28.1mm Ref.: Hartill 17.526, S868 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quant.geek Posted November 12, 2022 · Member Share Posted November 12, 2022 I usually buy these coins from reputable dealers, even though, these cash coins are fairly cheap. Just not knowledgeable in detecting the numerous fakes out there. It requires a lot of expertise to separate the wheat from the chaff... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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