A thread for my antiquities

[antwerpen2306]

Thanks, I'll keep you informed but I am angry if I contact with Dr Lipkin's link, they answer that it is very difficult to decide about authenticity from a photo, that they had the object in hand to examine and it was authentic. I do it next week and I am curious what will be the answer. albert

[DonnaML]

7 hours ago, antwerpen2306 said:

Thanks, I'll keep you informed but I am angry if I contact with Dr Lipkin's link, they answer that it is very difficult to decide about authenticity from a photo, that they had the object in hand to examine and it was authentic. I do it next week and I am curious what will be the answer. albert

Good luck! He'd have to have a lot of chutzpah to claim that all the others just like yours might be fake, but the one he sold you 13 years ago was the only genuine one!

[antwerpen2306]

I 've sent a mail this morning asking confirmation of the authenticity and if possible the origine of his purchase. I paid it about 220 US$ in 2009. I also said that I'll  check the authenticity in october at the University of Leuven. To do it earlier is not possible because now there are the examinations and then holliday till october.

I have also made some search in my books of ancient art and I still have hope it is not a fake. It is also curious that the fakes begun selling in 2016, after the beginning of the war in Syria. The same hapenned in the 90 after the first war in Irak. Then it was easy to buy at a good price a cuneiform tablet or other object from Irak by well know dealers in Brussels, what I also did. I think this situation was copied in 2016 by offering fakes on internet. albert

 

[David Johnson]

Hi Donna, what a nice collection and so well researched and documented. I notice your few coins are all tied to particular imagery etc from the antiquities. I have also recently started collecting coins.

I don't know if you might be interested in my collection but it consists of over 200 objects from pre-classical Cyprus: mostly Bronze Age but also some Geometric and Archaic.  My favourite period is around 2000BC: Early Cypriot III - Middle Cypriot I.

See https://ant.david-johnson.co.uk If you click on "thumbnails" you get an overview (on computer, not smartphone) clicking on things takes you to the appropriate article or enlarges the photo. Alternatively you can scroll through the collection. I'm afraid the writing was done as I collected things so much needs updating with my current knowledge (I am currently writing an academic catalogue to be published when the collection returns to Cyprus).

Here are a few pieces as a taster

[David Johnson]

First two were Early/Middle Bronze Age (around 2000BC), the third was Middle Bronze Age (Around 1800BC), the fourth is Late Bronze Age II, (1500-1200BC) and here is an Archaic head (around 500BC)

 

[DonnaML]

Thanks for posting all of those artifacts, @David Johnson! They're fantastic. 

Just fyi, regarding what you said about how my "few coins are all tied to particular imagery etc from the antiquities," please understand that I have a lot of ancient coins -- a number of which I've already posted elsewhere in this forum in the short time since it came into existence.  The ones I posted in this thread were  just the handful that were thematically relevant to my artifacts.  I realize that technically speaking, ancient coins could be classified as "antiquities" themselves, but they're usually thought of as a different category, and for most purposes I do as well.

Edited June 20, 2022 by DonnaML

[DonnaML]

10 hours ago, antwerpen2306 said:

I 've sent a mail this morning asking confirmation of the authenticity and if possible the origine of his purchase. I paid it about 220 US$ in 2009. I also said that I'll  check the authenticity in october at the University of Leuven. To do it earlier is not possible because now there are the examinations and then holliday till october.

I have also made some search in my books of ancient art and I still have hope it is not a fake. It is also curious that the fakes begun selling in 2016, after the beginning of the war in Syria. The same hapenned in the 90 after the first war in Irak. Then it was easy to buy at a good price a cuneiform tablet or other object from Irak by well know dealers in Brussels, what I also did. I think this situation was copied in 2016 by offering fakes on internet. albert

 

The ones cited by Dr. Lipkin were being sold in 2015, not that that makes a difference. In any event, fake antiquities supposedly from the region were being sold long before the civil war there began.  Did you look at Dr. Lipkin's previous page of fake Tell Halaf figurines, dating to 2005? Or his subsequent pages, comparing fake to genuine figurines? One suggestion he makes on a subsequent page is to have a TL (thermoluminescence) test done to test the age of the figurine; there are various commercial providers of such tests. I don't know how much they cost, though.

It seems to me that if fake copies essentially identical to yours were being made in 2015 in a factory somewhere, from a model, then yours should logically be a copy as well, from the same source. Because they certainly weren't using yours as a model in 2015, given that you bought it 2009.. 

I would have suggested that you not express any doubt to Artemission as to whether it's a fake, and that you simply demand a refund. The proprietor will probably use that uncertainty on your part as an excuse to try to "reassure" you that it's genuine. If you wait until October and then come back and ask for a refund, then who knows what he'll say? But it's obviously your decision to make. Of course, if you get a TL test done, and it shows that your artifact is modern, then if his COA means anything at all, he'll have to refund your money. 

Edited June 20, 2022 by DonnaML

[David Johnson]

Oxford Authentication lab charge £180 + vat

[Kyri]

4 hours ago, David Johnson said:

Oxford Authentication lab charge £180 + vat

Exactly the test cost almost as much as the piece itself. Surely an unglazed piece like this should be easy to see if it is real or not water test ect kyri 

[David Johnson]

Surely that was a rather cheap cost price for a genuine one.

[David Johnson]

Donna, ah yes, I had thought you were showing all your coins (I tend to lump antiquities and coins together in my thought).

My few coins so far are all Late 6th, early 5th century Cypriot, to go with my other pieces. The earliest coins came from the Kingdom of Salamis, King Evelthon (525 BC approx) and the next from the Kingdom of Paphos. This is the Earliest Paphos design (my most recent coin purchase): Obverse: man headed bull, to right, looking back (probably the river god Bokaros). Reverse: astragalos) 21.5mm 11.18g. However not the same lettering as usual ("pa-si-re-wo-se" in Cypriot syllabary, the pa being the start of the word for king and thought to refer to king Siromos). Instead this says ku-ti and possibly si and may be for a different king.

[David Johnson]

Really the reverse should be turned 90º clockwise to make the syllabary the right way up. 

[Kyri]

6 hours ago, David Johnson said:

Oxford Authentication lab charge £180 + vat

They charged me that (£180+vat ) 12 years ago I’m surprised if it’s still the same .

[antwerpen2306]

@DonnaML Thanks for all the time you spend for me. I am thinking this way : if I ask a refund because I saw some photo's on internet with as you say 'essentially identical' with my terracotta figure, then you know the answer before. Now I ask a confirmation of the authenticity and he knows I'll check it. If fake, I'll have it written on paper.

If I ask a refund now, I have no proofs and even with, I think it is very difficult to get the money back.  I don't know if Artemission is on ebay or anywhere else, it is a means to have some pressure. Once more many thanks and i keep you informed. albert

[antwerpen2306]

@Kyri, thank you for the information. It is not expensive for a valuable object, but VAT here is 21 % 😄 

albert

 

[DonnaML]

12 minutes ago, antwerpen2306 said:

@Kyri, thank you for the information. It is not expensive for a valuable object, but VAT here is 21 % 😄 

albert

 

What about trying a local laboratory?

[David Johnson]

If it were genuine you would have expected the Tell Halaf  figure to have cost several thousand pounds (the last on Christies was $5,400 and another had a start price of $6,400)

[DonnaML]

5 minutes ago, David Johnson said:

If it were genuine you would have expected the Tell Halaf  figure to have cost several thousand pounds (the last on Christies was $5,400 and another had a start price of $6,400)

Even back in 2009 when @antwerpen2306 made the purchase?

[DonnaML]

3 hours ago, David Johnson said:

Donna, ah yes, I had thought you were showing all your coins (I tend to lump antiquities and coins together in my thought).

My few coins so far are all Late 6th, early 5th century Cypriot, to go with my other pieces. The earliest coins came from the Kingdom of Salamis, King Evelthon (525 BC approx) and the next from the Kingdom of Paphos. This is the Earliest Paphos design (my most recent coin purchase): Obverse: man headed bull, to right, looking back (probably the river god Bokaros). Reverse: astragalos) 21.5mm 11.18g. However not the same lettering as usual ("pa-si-re-wo-se" in Cypriot syllabary, the pa being the start of the word for king and thought to refer to king Siromos). Instead this says ku-ti and possibly si and may be for a different king.

You should post the photo and description in one of the ancient coin subforums -- Greek? -- so people have the opportunity to see it and comment.

[antwerpen2306]

@David Johnson for prices, there is a big difference between the quality, the origine and the time you buy. I purchased an upper part ( mask) of an Egyptian mummy coffin in 1973 by a very well know dealer in Brussels ( still existing) for a price of 26000 Belgian francs at that time, 50 francs around = 1 US$. A few years before, in 1969, I was in Turkey  visiting the ancient town of Troy and I had the possibility to buy real genuine(👎) part of the Horse of the Greeks from the Ilias, I am no joking now, for 1 US$. I was not lucky, I had no fake US$ to buy a souvenir 😄

If you compare the prices of coins now and a few years back, there is a big difference if you want a very fine or better quality. So in IMO it is difficult to compare prices now and then. If you go more recent, you can buy some objects for half the price or cheaper of a few years ago. albert

 

[DonnaML]

Returning to the primary thread subject of my own antiquities collection, the additional item I mentioned above has now arrived. Here it is with its write-up, put together from the dealer's description and various other sources as set forth below:

Ancient Roman oil lamp displaying the characteristic red slip of North African terra sigillata [manufactured in Central Tunisia]. The vessel features a long canal nozzle and a rounded body. To the top, the discus is decorated with a small palmette, flanked by two rampant animals: a hound (wearing a collar) to the right, and a gazelle or other type of antelope to the left [the dealer identified it as a deer, but there are no deer in North Africa!], perhaps depicting a hunting scene. The shoulders, acting as a decorative border for the scene, feature a neatly drawn geometric pattern comprising concentric circles and triangles. A lug handle extends outwards to the rear of the lamp for holding. The reverse presents a short circular base, centred by two concentric grooves. Ca. mid-5th Century AD.  Length 5.5" (approx. 14 cm.). Purchased June 2022 from Ancient & Oriental (antiquities.co.uk), London, UK (Christopher J. Martin); ex "S.M. Collection, London, Mayfair, acquired 1970s-90s." Stated condition: Fine condition; a minor crack at the back of the handle and base ring. Signs of repair to the base. Hayes Type IIA [see J.W. Hayes, Late Roman Pottery (British School at Rome, London 1972) (Hayes 1972); see also J.W. Hayes, Ancient Lamps in the Royal Ontario Museum, a Catalogue; Vol. I, Greek & Roman Clay Lamps (Royal Ontario Museum, Toronto 1980) (Hayes 1980), pp. 63, 68 & Pl. 34 No. 288 et al.]; Atlante Type X [see Carandini, A., et al., eds. 1981, Ceramica fine romana nel bacino mediterraneo (medio et tardo impero), Vol. 1 of Atlante delle forme
ceramiche. (Enciclopedia dell’arte antica), Rome.]* 

Dealer's photo:

My photos:

The new lamp together with the one described earlier in this thread as the last item in my post at https://www.numisforums.com/topic/199-a-thread-for-my-antiquities/#comment-3606  (purchased at Coincraft, London in 2002), also a Hayes Type IIA from North Africa (Tunisia) ca. mid-5th Century AD, 1/2" longer and quite a bit deeper:

 

More dealer photos:

*I was a bit concerned about how pristine this lamp looked in the dealer's photo compared to my other one, although I didn't have major concerns given that the dealer, CJ Martin, is a highly reputable antiquities (and ancient coin) dealer of long standing.  (And, in any event, one can clearly see in hand a lot of the original dirt from excavation, in the crevices and openings.) So I posted the photo in the groups.io ancient artifacts group, and received the following comments, among others, from some of the experts there:

From Robert Kokotailo of the Calgary Coin Gallery:  "nothing about it looks off to me.  These lamps were often used as grave goods where they show in as new condition as the dry climate in North African can preserve such things very well.   As grave goods some were never used so the nozzles don't get the typical burn deposits most lamps have."

From @David Knell, an expert specifically on ancient oil lamps; see his "Ancient Lamps" website at  https://romulus2.com/lamps/index.shtml : "These African Red Slip (ARS) lamps were produced in enormous quantities since they were largely intended for export. The fabric of this Hayes Type IIa tends to be fairly hard and well-fired, and they have very often survived in pristine condition due to the arid burial environment in Tunisia. This example from Ancient & Oriental is typical and I see absolutely no reason to doubt its authenticity."

And this was the dealer's response to my inquiry:

"Yes, these lamps were mould made and mass produced in antiquity. Thanks to their quantity and often good burial condition, it is not unusual to find examples in such pristine condition. Should you wish to find more information on oil lamps, an excellent resource would be this document from the J. Paul Getty Museum, which has an extensive oil lamp collection: https://www.getty.edu/publications/ancientlamps/assets/downloads/AncientLamps_Bussiere_LindrosWohl.pdf  [see Jean Bussière & Birgitta Lindros Wohl, Ancient Lamps in the J. Paul Getty Museum (Getty Publications, Los Angeles, CA, 2017)].
 Atlante X Hayes IIA type lamps, as the piece you have purchased, are covered from page 352."

Again from @David Knell's website, at https://romulus2.com/lamps/lampcat/lampcatnotes.shtml, a very useful photo identifying the often-referenced parts of ancient oil lamps:

And here are some Hayes Type IIA lamps similar to mine, with descriptions of the type:

From the Getty publication at p. 352, concerning the two major types of these Tunisian lamps, according to Hayes's classification:

"Subtype II A groups lamps from central Tunisia characterized by a fine clay, glossy light orange slip, and carefully executed decoration using a great number of neatly drawn
shoulder motives. Subtype II B groups lamps from northern Tunisia characterized by a coarser clay, dull brick-red slip, and larger shoulder stamps of often blurred quality. Lamps of Hayes types I and II, initially produced in Tunisia only, were broadly exported, then imitated
throughout the Roman Empire for three centuries; consequently, they are extremely numerous. Several typologies have been worked out, but so far none is totally satisfactory, for new series continue to be distinguished. The basic work is the classification given in Atlante I, pp.
200–204, by Anselmino and Pavolini. . . . The Getty lamps of the types 
here considered all date to the fifth or sixth century A.D., with the exception of cat. 492."

No. 497:

"Description: Moldmade, from plaster mold. Solid spikelike handle
flattened on sides. Oval elongated body. Shoulder: stamps alternating
between beaded triangles and concentric circles (Répertoire, Cg42 and
Da20); stamps next to nozzle are half Répertoire, Da20. Two equal-sized
filling-holes, at upper right and left. Discus surrounded by ridge,
continuing around nozzle to form broad channel. Raised rounded base ring connected to handle; two thin concentric circles in middle of base.
Discus Iconography: Dromedary with saddlebag walking to right,
toward handle.
Type: Atlante X; Hayes II A"

Note the close similarity to my new lamp of the design of alternating concentric circles and beaded triangles around the outside border of the discus (except that the triangles point inwards rather than outwards). In  addition, the same design of two  thin concentric circles appears in the middle of the bottom (underside) of both this lamp and my lamp. The bottom of the Getty lamp:

Do these similarities in the secondary design elements suggest a possible common origin for the two lamps?

Next, from David Knell's website, No. BNA6 at https://romulus2.com/lamps/database/lamp.php?103:

From Hayes 1980, p. 63:

From Hayes 1980, p. 68, describing lamp No. 288, Type IIA:

Photo of Lamp No. 288, from Hayes 1980, Plate 34:

 

Finally, from the article Late Antique oil lamps from the Archaeological Museum in Split (Zagreb, Croatia 2012), another description of the various Hayes subtypes:

"J. W. Hayes divided Late Antique oil lamps from North Africa into
two types. Type I includes lamps that have an oval discus, a narrow
diagonal shoulder and a short nozzle. It is divided into two sub-types
(Hayes IA and Hayes IB) which differ based on the handle form. The first
is dated to the early fourth century, while the second to the late fourth
to early fifth centuries. Type II has a circular discus, a wide and straight
shoulder, a long nozzle and a wedged, outwardly drawn handle. This
type is also divided into two sub-types (Hayes IIA and Hayes IIB). The
differences between them are apparent in the quality of the clear and
the clarity and precision of the ornamentation. Type II is dated from the
late fourth century to roughly the year 550. Regardless of the types,
individual examples have workshop stamps in the middle of bottom
(most often individual letters or monograms). Since these lamps were in
use over a long period, variants emerged which combined the features
of the aforementioned principal types, with a rectangular discus or
shoulders that flow continually dividing the discus from the channel."

From the same article Late Antique oil lamps from the Archaeological Museum in Split, some Hayes Type IIA lamps, at Pl. I Nos. 4-6:

Again, note the border of alternating beaded triangles and concentric circles on the lamp on the right. Perhaps it was simply a frequently-used design 

Edited June 21, 2022 by DonnaML

[Octavius]

 Some c. first century Roman lamps,  griffin , ass, bull , and Pegasus..

 

[Octavius]

1st-3rd century Roman lamp with scorpion....

 

[ValiantKnight]

Hi @DonnaML. Sorry to briefly hijack your artifact thread but was hoping to get your thoughts on this little terracotta head I have. It was described as Roman from the 1st or 2nd century AD. Is it really Roman and does it resemble anyone in particular (an empress or goddess)? And does it look authentic? Regarding the latter I’m leaning towards yes due to the dirt on it. The bottom photo is a side-back view. Thanks for your help!

[David Johnson]

Antwerpen2306, yes of course prices of antiquities go up as time passes and fewer come on the market.  Cypriot things steadily go up.  Also dealers almost always charge much more than buying at auction.  Of course a flood of fakes or looted items might affect prices too.  It is notable how much a good provenance increases the price now.  Unfortunately you still get the regular phenomenon of "From private collection of English gentleman" which is meaningless and one has to suspect conceals a recently looted piece.