A thread for my antiquities

[DonnaML]

Some interesting news for @Octavius, and some unfortunate news for @antwerpen2306, from a comment regarding this thread, in the io.com ancientartifacts group, by Dr. Bron Lipkin, the proprietor of the collector-antiquities.com website and a noted expert specifically on the subject of the identification and authenticity of ancient artifacts:

"The member Octavius might like to know that the recent acquisition from Den of Antiquity is actually rather more ancient than they wrote. "1000BCE".   It is a Tell el-Yahudiyeh Ware juglet most of which were made between 1750 BC and 1550 BC.  Kaplan's book "The origin and distribution of Tell el Yahudiyeh ware" (which is actually  a revision of her PhD thesis at Brandeis University in 1978.) is a wonderful resource and using it they would probably be able to pin the juglet  down geographically much more more precisely. 

 

For  the member "antwerpen2306"  who has a wonderful collection  I'm sorry to say that  the Tell Halaf type figurine is not genuine.
See here for this fake type.

https://www.collector-antiquities.com/real-or-fake/tell-halaf-figurines-section-2/tell-halaf-figurines-section-2-page-2.html "

[Octavius]

8 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

Some interesting news for @Octavius, and some unfortunate news for @antwerpen2306, from a comment regarding this thread, in the io.com ancientartifacts group, by Dr. Bron Lipkin, the proprietor of the collector-antiquities.com website and a noted expert specifically on the subject of the identification and authenticity of ancient artifacts:

"The member Octavius might like to know that the recent acquisition from Den of Antiquity is actually rather more ancient than they wrote. "1000BCE".   It is a Tell el-Yahudiyeh Ware juglet most of which were made between 1750 BC and 1550 BC.  Kaplan's book "The origin and distribution of Tell el Yahudiyeh ware" (which is actually  a revision of her PhD thesis at Brandeis University in 1978.) is a wonderful resource and using it they would probably be able to pin the juglet  down geographically much more more precisely. 

 

For  the member "antwerpen2306"  who has a wonderful collection  I'm sorry to say that  the Tell Halaf type figurine is not genuine.
See here for this fake type.

https://www.collector-antiquities.com/real-or-fake/tell-halaf-figurines-section-2/tell-halaf-figurines-section-2-page-2.html "

 Wow @DonnaML! Thank you so much for that news. I am especially fond of that period of Egyptian history. I am thrilled, but feel awful about Antwerpen's figurine!

[DonnaML]

I feel awful for him as well, but looking at Dr. Lipkin's link, there's really no doubt. Fortunately, although I've had the experience of being informed that an ancient coin I purchased was a fake, it has yet to happen with an artifact.

[NewStyleKing]

On 6/9/2022 at 8:27 PM, DonnaML said:

To follow up on my faience amulet of a reclining lion (probably representing Sekhmet), here's something from the same family: a faience amulet of Bastet.

Egypt, pale blue glazed faience amulet of Bastet, the cat goddess, seated on base, loop in back of neck, left ear missing, 26th Dynasty-Ptolemaic period , ca. 663-300 BCE. 34 mm. H.  Purchased from Harmer Rooke, New York City, 2/26/1990.

The top cat(!)  looks like a lion cat  kitten. Mieu. Apparently middle ancient Egyptian for Cat  as found on a Young Thutmose  prince's cat mummy. Onomatopoeic, sure the egyptians could be more inventive than that! 

[Kyri]

On 6/9/2022 at 3:38 PM, NewStyleKing said:

Love that  cone In my humble opinion they did not wear mounds of perfumed fat on their heads, but it is a hieroglyph for perfumed person!

Apullian  Glaux skyphos, Apulian Lekythos, Attic large Glaux skyphos 

That is not an apulian lekyphos but a black figure attic piece and though glaux means owl in Greek this shape of skyphos is not usually labelled as a glaux skyphos that  particular name is reserved for the skyphos with one handle horizontal to the other and is used to differentiate the the two types of skyphos styles  kyri 

[NewStyleKing]

57 minutes ago, Kyri said:

That is not an apulian lekythos but a black figure attic piece and though glaux means owl in Greek this shape of skyphos is not usually labelled as a glaux skyphos that  particular name is reserved for the skyphos with one handle horizontal to the other and is used to differentiate the the two types of skyphos styles  kyri 

THANKS Kyri,  Bought the lekythos from HJB so its Attic? What date? The Glaux Skyphos in some  references say the horizontal handles type is called Type A and a bit earlier the the other is type B !  What type of book explains  al this?  Thanks and regards, NewStyleKing (John Nisbet)

[Egry]

On 6/4/2022 at 2:15 AM, DonnaML said:

Rather than clutter up the existing thread with photos of my various ancient artifacts, primarily Greek, Roman, and Egyptian -- which I've bought over the last 40 years or so, beginning long before I collected ancient coins -- I thought I would start a separate thread. For one thing, it will make the photos easier for me to find than in the other place, where the photos are scattered among a lot of different threads.

I'll start out by posting photos of my various ancient Greek vases.

An Attic black-figure lekythos from ca. 525-500 BCE, four warriors in combat; on shoulder, two hounds facing each other. 4" H x 2" W at widest part. Purchased 03/15/1986, Royal Athena Galleries, NYC:






Another Attic Black-figure Lekythos, ca. 525-500 BCE, pygmies hunting rooster (or rooster hunting pygmies), 3 1/2" (8.9 cm) high, purchased 12.17.2019, Hixenbaugh Ancient Art, NYC:

An Athenian horse departing for parts unknown with its rider and his attendants in about 525-500 BCE, as shown on this Attic black-figure lekythos (4 1/4", 10.8 cm. high), manufactured for export in the Kerameikos (pottery) district, Athens. Purchased 12.17.2019, Hixenbaugh Ancient Art, NYC.












Note the hound chasing a hare on the shoulder, putting the vase in the Hound and Hare Group of Attic lekythoi. See https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/term/BIOG58829, explaining that the term refers to "a group of Athenian black-figure vase-painters whose names are unknown who produced vases with a similar style of drawing (mostly lekythoi). Beazley (following Haspels ABL) named them the Hound and Hare group because of the unusual subject (a hound pursuing a hare) decorating the shoulder. A few vases have been attributed to this group on the basis of style." For lekythoi like this one, the Hound and Hare Group is usually considered a subset of the Little Lion Class because of its shape, and the general presence of animals on the shoulder: see https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/term/BIOG59217.

The three Attic lekythoi together:

Corinthian aryballos, ca. 600 BCE, rooster and swan, 62 mm. H x 56 mm. W at widest point, purchased 12/16/2019, Ancient & Oriental (antiquities.co.uk, Christopher Martin):





A miniature Apulian net lekythos, with a second photo giving an idea of its size, purchased at Royal Athena, NYC.

South Italy, Apulian red-figure stemless cup with two handles; on either side of body, female head (Lady of Fashion), wearing sakkos [cloth hair covering], with large flower, stephane, earrings, necklace; ca. 350-325 BCE. 2 ½” (64 mm.) H x 3 ¾” (95 mm.) D x 5 ¾” (146 mm) W. Purchased 3/6/1993, Royal Athena Galleries, NYC.





 

An Apulian (South Italian) net lekythos, purchased from Harmer Rooke, NYC, 02.06.1982. 2 3/4" high.

Hi Donna, these are so beautiful. One thing I've always wondered is did the orange colour fade over the last say 2500 years? Was it originally more red?

For scale what height are they?

Lots of questions lol

[Etcherdude]

1 hour ago, Egry said:

Hi Donna, these are so beautiful. One thing I've always wondered is did the orange colour fade over the last say 2500 years? Was it originally more red?

For scale what height are they?

Lots of questions lol

@DonnaML, I hope you won’t mind if I butt in and respond to @Egry’s question regarding color. 

The “red” you see is not paint or even glaze, it is the color of the fired clay body. I’m not a chemist but I think the color is very stable, certainly over a relatively brief (geologically speaking) period of a few thousand years.

 

 

[Egry]

10 minutes ago, Etcherdude said:

@DonnaML, I hope you won’t mind if I butt in and respond to @Egry’s question regarding color. 

The “red” you see is not paint or even glaze, it is the color of the fired clay body. I’m not a chemist but I think the color is very stable, certainly over a relatively brief (geologically speaking) period of a few thousand years.

 

 

Wow so the colour is the clay. If that's the case you must be able to locate its alluvial source precisely? The black color must be a black sand glaze?

[Etcherdude]

6 minutes ago, Egry said:

Wow so the colour is the clay. If that's the case you must be able to locate its alluvial source precisely? The black color must be a black sand glaze?

Yes.

The black is either glaze or what is called engobe. Engobe is very silty tiny (slip) particles of the clay body that have turned black in a reducing fire - carbon from an oxygen starved firing. The porous coarse clay turns from black back to red in a subsequent “reoxidizing” fire as the carbon burns out. That’s the theory (as I understand it anyway).  Look up black figure and red figure style ceramics. White and violet color on these objects is paint added after firing.

[antwerpen2306]

For  the member "antwerpen2306"  who has a wonderful collection  I'm sorry to say that  the Tell Halaf type figurine is not genuine.
See here for this fake type.

https://www.collector-antiquities.com/real-or-fake/tell-halaf-figurines-section-2/tell-halaf-figurines-section-2-page-2.html "

Thanks for your interest @DonnaML, but I think it is a real idol. I bought it on september 28, 2009 by Artemission-London. I know there are a lot fakes in Syrian terracotta, but I think Artemission is trustworthy. I never had problems with them. I have never bought antiquities on ebay, because you can never be sure it is real by looking a photo. albert

 

 

 

[Kyri]

Artemission has sold fakes in the past he is not a respected seller on most antiquities collectors forums where I am a member kyri 

[Kyri]

3 hours ago, NewStyleKing said:

THANKS Kyri,  Bought the lekythos from HJB so its Attic? What date? The Glaux Skyphos in some  references say the horizontal handles type is called Type A and a bit earlier the the other is type B !  What type of book explains  al this?  Thanks and regards, NewStyleKing (John Nisbet)

I am suprised if HJB said this lekyphoi was apulian as far as I know black figure apulian vases don’t exist and I have collected Greek vases for over 25 years . it is attic circ 490/530 bc . When an owl skyphos is called a gluax is because the horizontal handle gives the impression of a beak it’s what most professionals call the skyphos cup with a horizontal handle they are referring to the actual shape most auctions like bonhams or Christie’s will catalog your pieces as owl skyphos but the ones with horizontal handle will be a gluax skyphos 

Edited June 17, 2022 by Kyri

[Kyri]

See the description from met above 

[NewStyleKing]

Thanks  for that! Kyri 

 

A wine jug was used to add wine to water  from a hydria, in a Krater and  mixture was drunk from a kalix or skyphos at a funeral.

 

A lykanthos  was a perfumed oil for placing on the corpse.

 

John

 

 

 

 

 

[DonnaML]

1 hour ago, antwerpen2306 said:

For  the member "antwerpen2306"  who has a wonderful collection  I'm sorry to say that  the Tell Halaf type figurine is not genuine.
See here for this fake type.

https://www.collector-antiquities.com/real-or-fake/tell-halaf-figurines-section-2/tell-halaf-figurines-section-2-page-2.html "

Thanks for your interest @DonnaML, but I think it is a real idol. I bought it on september 28, 2009 by Artemission-London. I know there are a lot fakes in Syrian terracotta, but I think Artemission is trustworthy. I never had problems with them. I have never bought antiquities on ebay, because you can never be sure it is real by looking a photo. albert

 

 

 

Believe me, @antwerpen2306,  I understand how difficult it may be to accept that a prized artifact that you have owned since 2009 is a fake.  Unfortunately, however, I think Dr. Lipkin's link to a series of known fakes that look exactly like your artifact leaves no doubt that yours is a fake as well. Equally unfortunately, @Kyri is correct:  you cannot rely on Artemission as being an entirely trustworthy dealer.  To the contrary, Artemission's proprietor is well-known as a seller who is not necessarily trustworthy. He sells many genuine artifacts, but has also repeatedly sold artifacts identified as fakes -- perhaps not deliberately, but carelessly at least.  And quite a few of the genuine artifacts are mis-identified. 

I bought a half-dozen artifacts myself from Artemission in 2007 and 2009 (see my identifications above).  But I learned about Artemission's reputation sometime shortly thereafter, and have bought nothing from that dealer since.  I'm lucky that all of the artifacts I bought from Artemission (one of which had a recent provenance to another dealer) have since been authenticated by Randy Hixenbaugh, among others. However, as it turned out, two of the six were wrongly identified: Artemission identified the bronze horse from Thrace/Moesia as being from Italy, and identified the Egyptian bronze Schilbe fish crown attachment as being a Roman bronze catfish.

My advice to you, assuming that you still have your receipt and Certificate of Authenticity from Artemission from back in 2009 -- and I know that Artemission's Certificates of Authenticity in 2009 contained unconditional guarantees of authenticity without any expiration date -- is to send Artemission a copy of your COA, along with Dr. Lipkin's link, and demand a refund. Obviously, you would have to return the object.  Good luck.

Edited June 17, 2022 by DonnaML

[DonnaML]

6 minutes ago, NewStyleKing said:

A lykanthos  was a perfumed oil for placing on the corpse.

 

John

 

 

 

 

 

Do you mean lekythos? I've never heard of a lykanthos. I've heard of a lycanthrope, but that's a werewolf!

[NewStyleKing]

Yes I do Donna!  My bad.

 

John

[DonnaML]

4 hours ago, Egry said:

Hi Donna, these are so beautiful. One thing I've always wondered is did the orange colour fade over the last say 2500 years? Was it originally more red?

For scale what height are they?

Lots of questions lol

@Etcherdude has already answered your questions about the manufacture of Attic black-figured pottery, @Egry In real life, I'd describe the color of the backgrounds of my three lekythoi as more pink than orange. I believe the heights were included in my descriptions, but they're all quite small, and all around the same size: the three are 3 1/2", 4", and 4 1/4" high.

Edited June 17, 2022 by DonnaML

[David Knell]

5 hours ago, DonnaML said:

Believe me, @antwerpen2306,  I understand how difficult it may be to accept that a prized artifact that you have owned since 2009 is a fake.  Unfortunately, however, I think Dr. Lipkin's link to a series of known fakes that look exactly like your artifact leaves no doubt that yours is a fake as well. Equally unfortunately, @Kyri is correct:  you cannot rely on Artemission as being an entirely trustworthy dealer.  To the contrary, Artemission's proprietor is well-known as a seller who is not necessarily trustworthy. He sells many genuine artifacts, but has also repeatedly sold artifacts identified as fakes -- perhaps not deliberately, but carelessly at least.  And quite a few of the genuine artifacts are mis-identified. 

Indeed, while a large proportion of the stock sold by Artemission is authentic, his reputation is not exactly encouraging. One of my blog posts from a few years ago ...

Ancient Heritage: "There is no evidence" that these antiquities are fakes (ancient-heritage.blogspot.com)

David
 

[NewStyleKing]

Thank you David, did he ever respond to the known and acknowledged fakes/replicas on the eBay  and his own stock. His professional  body never queried it and asked for an explanation? Maybe it is a body used to cover up shenanigan's?

 

John aka NewStyleKing

[David Knell]

John,
Karawani replied privately to my earlier post about his fake bronze lamps, apologised, removed those from his website and vowed to never sell them again. Hmm, we can see how that played out a few years later ...
Ancient Heritage: An enduring tradition (ancient-heritage.blogspot.com)

No reply to my other post on the general fakes - but to be fair, what could he say? I suspect he knows very well what he's doing. The items just mysteriously disappeared from his website the next day.

> Maybe it is a body used to cover up shenanigan's?
I think that's a pretty spot-on assessment of the AIAD. When a real association won't have you, no problem: just create your own!

David

[antwerpen2306]

thanks all for the comments. I do not know now what to do. I have to wait to october to contact a specialist at the university of Leuven, where I studied long ago but have very good contacts. Maybe I contact Artemission next week to see their reaction.

I am happy I bought only this figure from Artemission (I had checked the firm on internet) and I appreciate very much your information. Again thanks and I hep you informed. albert

 

[Kyri]

3 hours ago, antwerpen2306 said:

thanks all for the comments. I do not know now what to do. I have to wait to october to contact a specialist at the university of Leuven, where I studied long ago but have very good contacts. Maybe I contact Artemission next week to see their reaction.

I am happy I bought only this figure from Artemission (I had checked the firm on internet) and I appreciate very much your information. Again thanks and I hep you informed. albert

 

You won’t find much on the internet because these people Sadigh , Artemission ect actively get bad reviews removed as was the case of David’s original blog post apparently sadigh hired a company to do just that police the internet and have all bad posts removed . The best place to find out what is really going on is antiquities collectors forums. That is where the truth can be found forget about dealer websites with false comments and eBay’s ratings ect 

[NewStyleKing]

Look up Sadigh on google , you will be amazed, that despite egregious fakes and complaints he carried on for years. He had his own group of forgers in the back shop!  If you wanted several copies but originals! Sadigh could oblige. Unique items could be bought and sold repeatedly!

 

NSK=John