Why do we still use BC and AD for numismatics?

[DonnaML]

19 minutes ago, John Conduitt said:

 I can't see how you can be offended by BC but not Sábado. 

And I don't see how you can't see the difference, especially when you're talking to someone Jewish! Of all the comparisons one could make, yours allows for the most obvious distinction: BC and AD are explicitly Christian. Sábado is very clearly not. What do you think the Hebrew word for Saturday is?  Shabbat! (Or Shabbos among Ashkenazim.) Using words for days of the week derived from the names of deities of defunct religions, whether Mars and Mercury or Tiw and Woden, isn't remotely analogous and doesn't remotely imply present acknowledgment of their divinity. But I said all of that already, and we're going around in a circle. Telling people why they can or can't find certain things offensive is futile, and a complete waste of time. Especially when people are talking only about their own personal feelings and not trying to persuade others to change the terminology they use themselves.

[kirispupis]

51 minutes ago, John Conduitt said:

Well, I must be missing something, but I still don't get your point. What it boils down to is that I can't see how you can be offended by BC but not Sábado. They're both references to a religion that imply some sort of reverence. The fact that the weekday naming example doesn't apply in English doesn't make it irrelevant - the very idea of a 7 day week ending in a day of rest is rooted in religion, not language. We're quite able to create a few more days named after different ancient gods.

Well, if you want to know why I personally don’t have an issue.

- From birth I’ve always called the day “Saturday.” When I later learned it’s association with Saturn I was not offended, primarily because I have no positive or negative preconceptions of him.

- When I’m in Spain I have enough troubles making myself understood in the language than to protest it by saying “el sesto dia de la semana” or whatever else, assuming we number the days the same way.

- In Germany I could use Sonnenabend instead of Samstag, though I’ve always chosen fewer syllables.

- And since you wanted to know why I’m personally not offended, the word Sabbath is actually from my own religion and was only borrowed by Christianity, so it wouldn’t make much sense for me to be upset by it.

However, BC/AD have nothing to do with my religion, are not formed from roots in my native language, and I do have another choice in BCE/CE that have been around for 300 years.

[John Conduitt]

31 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

And I don't see how you can't see the difference, especially when you're talking to someone Jewish! Of all the comparisons one could make, yours allows for the most obvious distinction: BC and AD are explicitly Christian. Sábado is very clearly not. What do you think the Hebrew word for Saturday is?  Shabbat! (Or Shabbos among Ashkenazim.) Using words for days of the week derived from the names of deities of defunct religions, whether Mars and Mercury or Tiw and Woden, isn't remotely analogous and doesn't remotely imply present acknowledgment of their divinity. But I said all of that already, and we're going around in a circle. Telling people why they can or can't find certain things offensive is futile, and a complete waste of time. Especially when people are talking only about their own personal feelings and not trying to persuade others to change the terminology they use themselves.

I'm trying to take an inclusive view. When I asked why you would be offended by one and not the other, I meant generally, not as a Jewish person specifically. The conclusion is you'd have to find language across the board that doesn't offend anyone. So essentially, I'm agreeing it is futile to try, apart from perhaps the most extreme examples. Judaism and Christianity have a fair bit of common ground, but that doesn't create a consensus that works beyond those religions. I clearly said the English names are not analogous.

Anyway, I'm not putting it clearly enough. It seems the conclusion is we can all use whichever we find offends us least.

[DonnaML]

Just now, John Conduitt said:

I'm trying to take an inclusive view. When I asked why you would be offended by one and not the other, I meant generally, not as a Jewish person specifically. The conclusion is you'd have to find language across the board that doesn't offend anyone. So essentially, I'm agreeing it is futile to try, apart from perhaps the most extreme examples. Judaism and Christianity have a fair bit of common ground, but that doesn't create a consensus that works beyond those religions. I clearly said the English names are not analogous.

Anyway, I'm not putting it clearly enough. It seems the conclusion is we can all use whichever we find offends us least.

OK. I misunderstood, but I think I get your point now! I still feel that the subject has been pretty much exhausted at this point, and that the thread should perhaps be closed for good.

[Curtisimo]

I respect that members have their reasons for wanting to continue this discussion but after all the ill will it has engendered I would rather not see it continue to pop up at the top of my thread list.

Is there a way to ignore a thread without ignoring the person who started it? I only know of a way to do the latter.

[kirispupis]

1 minute ago, Curtisimo said:

I respect that members have their reasons for wanting to continue this discussion but after all the ill will it has engendered I would rather not see it continue to pop up at the top of my thread list.

Is there a way to ignore a thread without ignoring the person who started it? I only know of a way to do the latter.

The simplest way would be for @Restitutorto just shut the thread down. It sounds like we have a consensus and can wholeheartedly agree that this would be welcomed.

[Severus Alexander]

3 hours ago, kirispupis said:

The simplest way would be for @Restitutorto just shut the thread down. It sounds like we have a consensus and can wholeheartedly agree that this would be welcomed.

Well, I'd prefer to be able to continue to comment on the thread, (which seems to be going fine on the principle of "we're all adults here and know how to behave, and to disagree without getting unpleasant")... it's just such a busy time right now I haven't been able to.

One thing, though: I don't think the defenders of abandoning "BC/AD" are well served by the term "offensive," which seems too strong.  "Failing to be inclusive" is much better.

Hoping to say more later! 🙂

[Restitutor]

12 hours ago, kirispupis said:

The simplest way would be for @Restitutorto just shut the thread down. It sounds like we have a consensus and can wholeheartedly agree that this would be welcomed.

Given that everyone has remained extremely cordial and respectful I will likely keep the thread unlocked, but I do echo the comments saying the topic itself has probably run its course.

In the rare occasions I lock a thread here, I notice an uptick on a certain… other site reveling in the fact I have to use moderation powers. It’s childish, and I don’t really care, but may as well avoid it when I can 🙂 

[ewomack]

Yes, I think (hope) that we can handle this maturely without locking the thread, but I also agree that the point of the discussion has begun to resemble that poor proverbial beaten horse (someone needs to help that horse). I've seen this discussion come to the digital equivalent of open warfare on other forums and I'm glad that we didn't experience such a complete meltdown here. I personally enjoy sessions that involve cordial disagreement among people (obviously everyone has their own boundaries; I'm fine with cautiously turning up the heat at least a little bit sometimes). It's how we grow emotionally and intellectually and learn to live with one another. I hope to see more such discussions handled just as well here in the future.