Kuenker auctions

[Limes]

1 hour ago, Prieure de Sion said:

Hmmm frustration today. On CNG a bidder kill my bid 1s before ending at the Godianus Aureus. 
And at Künker I get only the Balbinus and one Gordianus - but booth for the Shop - nothing for me. 

Bad day - but hey - some interesting auctions coming up the next weeks. No matter real really bad for a long time. 
Tomorrow is a new auction day... and tomorrow and tomorrow... 🙂 

Out of curiosity; what shop? 

29 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

I bid (not terribly much) on three coins, one Roman Republican and two Imperials. 

I seriously underestimated how much the Imperials would sell for. I would have had to bid about 5 times what I did to win this denarius, given that my bid was only 400 Euros:

I probably shouldn't be surprised that I didn't come close to the early Augustus, but I didn't expect this Hadrian to go for almost 10 times the 200 Euros I bid! Perhaps it's an uncommon type, but if that's the case I had no idea.

On the other hand, I did win this Roman Republican denarius for less than my bid. I guess it just didn't attract much interest, even though it's a type I haven't seen that often and appears to me to be in decent condition:

 

Congratulations on the win, that's a lovely RR.

About that Augustus, it's a more than nice example of the type, although I've seen an example of a not so much lesser quality (obv and rev a little off center, good details on reverse, nice toning) for sale in retail for 450 eur. Not saying that this one sold by Kunker isn't worth the 2.200 EUR (someone thought it was worth it), but if I had to chose I'd rather go for the 450 EUR one. In the end I guess it's a matter of quality - price and where one stands on that scale, which makes the answer to the question what is it worth a very personal one. 

[Romancollector]

51 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

I bid (not terribly much) on three coins, one Roman Republican and two Imperials. 

I seriously underestimated how much the Imperials would sell for. I would have had to bid about 5 times what I did to win this denarius, given that my bid was only 400 Euros:

I probably shouldn't be surprised that I didn't come close to the early Augustus, but I didn't expect this Hadrian to go for almost 10 times the 200 Euros I bid! Perhaps it's an uncommon type, but if that's the case I had no idea

 

Not saying this was inexpensive by any means, but it is a fair price considering the going rate of Julio-Claudian denarii. I have yet to see any near ef/ef examples under the $2,000-3,000 mark. The Augustus denarius I wanted hammered for close to 4,000 euros, which in my opinion is too high given the fact that it was o/c and lacked a pedigree. 

As for the Hadrian denarius, I think that the price is also in line with the going rate rather than an exception. I say this as someone who is actively pursuing (unsuccessfully) travel denarii. If I recall correctly, the ones CNG had in their previous feature auction fetched similar hammer prices. Unfortunately, high-grade examples seem unobtainable below $1,000. 😞 

[DonnaML]

10 minutes ago, Romancollector said:

As for the Hadrian denarius, I think that the price is also in line with the going rate rather than an exception. I say this as someone who is actively pursuing (unsuccessfully) travel denarii. If I recall correctly, the ones CNG had in their previous feature auction fetched similar hammer prices. Unfortunately, high-grade examples seem unobtainable below $1,000. 😞 

I guess it depends on what you mean by high-grade, given that this example has a flan crack that's very noticeable on both sides. Plus it's not really part of the so-called "Travel Series" even under a broad definition; it's just an image of Oceanus. I didn't look it up; perhaps it's rare as a depiction of a Titan rather than an Olympian deity? In any event, I think the prices for travel denarii are high when they get to $500 and up (like the Restitutori Hispaniae denarius I bought at the CNG auction today), but I don't look for coins in a condition quite as superb as yours!

[Barzus]

I did not win anything, even though I thought I was well prepared. I ended up second bidder in the three lots I was targeting.

1 - very rare gold Imperial with no past sale records: went simply to high for my pockets, not much more I could have done: nice fight during the live but opponent was stronger than me. Nice adrenaline shot though. Of course, winning target 1 would have automatically cancelled target 2 and 3, and probably the next 10 000 as well 😂

2- very rare imperial denarius, but with former and recent sales records. It went twice as much as the normal price, that I don’t think can be justified by the coin condition. I could have kept going, but where do we stop? I don’t think the current market makes much sense. 

3- same story as above, but for a nice and scarce (but nothing extra-ordinary) late roman folles. I just stopped, as I felt it would go insane.

bottom line: I lost the first one because I am not rich enough, but the final price was kind of understandable for an almost unique and historically important artefact. I lost the other two I could afford (and they would have been great additions) because I don’t want to play the current game of crazy prices.

[Cordoba]

i wanted this diodotus tetradrachm but went way above what i planned to bid for it lol

[Romancollector]

4 hours ago, DonnaML said:

I guess it depends on what you mean by high-grade, given that this example has a flan crack that's very noticeable on both sides. Plus it's not really part of the so-called "Travel Series" even under a broad definition; it's just an image of Oceanus. I didn't look it up; perhaps it's rare as a depiction of a Titan rather than an Olympian deity? In any event, I think the prices for travel denarii are high when they get to $500 and up (like the Restitutori Hispaniae denarius I bought at the CNG auction today), but I don't look for coins in a condition quite as superb as yours!

Ohh… I totally glossed over the fact that it’s not a travel series denarius… oops! I thought it was an aegyptos like mine! In any case, I would assume that it is less common and therefore adjacent to the travel series price wise.

As for grade, I can’t say that I only go after superb ef/mint state pieces or whatever you’d call it, but rather I go for what I believe has the maximum eye appeal!

Here’s the coin I won today! Definitely not ms, but it is eye appealing and well-pedigreed nonetheless.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Romancollector

[DonnaML]

44 minutes ago, Romancollector said:

Ohh… I totally glossed over the fact that it’s not a travel series denarius… oops! I thought it was an aegyptos like mine! In any case, I would assume that it is less common and therefore adjacent to the travel series price wise.

on it
As for grade, I can’t say that I only go after superb ef/mint state pieces or whatever you’d call it, but rather I go for what I believe has the maximum eye appeal!

Here’s the coin I won today! Definitely not ms, but it is eye appealing and well-pedigreed nonetheless.

That one was on my watch list, but in the end I didn't bid on it -- I had to stop somewhere! I am glad you are the one who won it.

[jfp7375]

I bid on several RR Denarii and got absolutely boomed

Some of the hammer prices were literally double my estimate, and a couple of those I bid aggressively for and really wanted. Seems like a lot of the VF/EF borderline coins went for an outrageous premium to market value. 

Interestingly, a couple of the more expensive coins I tossed in bids for (a RR Quadrigatus and a beautiful Octavian denarius) went for more reasonable prices. Very expensive coins and I didn't win because I was bidding conservatively just in case I could snag a good deal, but much closer to market values in my opinion 

Edited October 21, 2022 by jfp7375

[Severus Alexander]

16 hours ago, Kaleun96 said:

Nice one! I saw that went for a reasonable price, I may have gone for it myself but recently added to my collection the slightly earlier type (Price 2990 / Newell "Tarsos" 1) with the single globule above the throne strut. It's funny that this one comes before the type with no mint marks of any kind in both Price's and Newell's chronology. I believe it's due to the die-linkage pattern where Newell 1 (one globule) and Newell 2 (no mint marks) share some dies with each other, and thus are suspected to be contemporaries, but then separately share different dies with the "A" and "B" marked types respectively. Either way, all of these types are likely to have been produced fairly early in Tarsos' Alexandrine history. If you subscribe to the Tarsos "origin" hypothesis of Alexander's tetradrachms, then these would indeed be some of the very first Alexander tetradrachms ever produced, with 2990 being the first if the Price/Newell chronology is correct.

Thanks!  I expect revisiting these die studies adding in the many more known coins would repay the effort.  Personally I have some doubt that these early ones from Tarsus have a rigid order.  If we're talking a military mint here (as @kapphnwn has suggested) a little bit of chaos wouldn't be surprising, i.e. dies were mixed and matched a bit.

Let me know if you'd like to collaborate on such a die study, @Kaleun96, I'd be up for it!

[David Atherton]

3 hours ago, Romancollector said:

Ohh… I totally glossed over the fact that it’s not a travel series denarius… oops! I thought it was an aegyptos like mine! In any case, I would assume that it is less common and therefore adjacent to the travel series price wise.

As for grade, I can’t say that I only go after superb ef/mint state pieces or whatever you’d call it, but rather I go for what I believe has the maximum eye appeal!

Here’s the coin I won today! Definitely not ms, but it is eye appealing and well-pedigreed nonetheless.

Fantastic!

[Severus Alexander]

I see a few comments up there suggesting that some of us paid more than we were prepared to.  How about... not doing that?  Perhaps that might help prices settle down a bit? 😉

13 hours ago, Restitutor said:

Just got registered in the nick of time! Didn't realize you had to create two separate accounts, one for pre-bidding and one for live auction. The very nice lady I was on the phone with informed me that I could run the risk of live auction bidding against my pre-bids if I wasn't careful 😂 Very glad I called in when my (unbeknownst to me) pre-bid-only account kept erroring out when I tried logging in to the live bid 😅

I didn't realize you could participate live in Künker floor auctions (as opposed to e-Live).  How do you do that, @Restitutor?

[velarfricative]

8 hours ago, Cordoba said:

i wanted this diodotus tetradrachm but went way above what i planned to bid for it lol

It actually went quite cheaply, but I woke up far too late to bid myself, unfortunately. Kunker's estimates are very misleading, this is an expensive type.

[Hesiod]

44 minutes ago, Severus Alexander said:

14 hours ago, Restitutor said:

 

I didn't realize you could participate live in Künker floor auctions (as opposed to e-Live).  How do you do that, @Restitutor?

Kunker has let you bid on floor auctions live since covid began. https://kuenker.auex.de/live/ is the auction link.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Hesiod

[Severus Alexander]

52 minutes ago, Hesiod said:

Kunker has let you bid on floor auctions live since covid began. https://kuenker.auex.de/live/ is the auction link.

Ha!  Thanks.  I'm usually asleep (on the west coast) but I'll try to make use of that next time.  Do they update the start prices there like they do for the e-Live auctions?  That's one of the most frustrating things about Künker for me, not knowing where the bidding level is at, only the start prices.

[Mucius Scaevola]

Here are my snacks. I'll have to wait for the Augustus. They described it as extremely fine/mint state, so I took the risk.

The Galba...what should I say..I was frustrated and that's normally the point I just close the website. I didn't and I got that one, for whatever reason. At least the price was fair.

[SimonW]

3 hours ago, Severus Alexander said:

I see a few comments up there suggesting that some of us paid more than we were prepared to.  How about... not doing that?  Perhaps that might help prices settle down a bit? 😉

Good question, @Severus Alexander. I can't talk for others, but I am just not that disciplined 🙂 That's why I don't set myself a "hard" limit in the first place. Instead, I usually have a rough range in mind. Many times I even go beyond that and keep bidding until I feel the next bid realy hurts. This said, I usually don't regret the coins I've bought, but the ones I didn't.

It also greatly depends on the coin. Is it one that I "must have" or one that would be "nice to have". In the area I collect and try to complete, there are many rare types that only turn up on the market every 10, 20 or so years and I usually don't want to risk to wait that long before I'll get another chance to buy one at an even higher price.

I bought some of the fractions in that sale. Here is the one that was the "must have" coin for me this time:

Edited October 21, 2022 by SimonW

[Severus Alexander]

3 minutes ago, SimonW said:

It also greatly depends on the coin. Is it one that I "need" or one that would be "nice to have". In the area I collect and try to complete, there are many rare types that only turn up on the market every 10, 20 or so years and I usually don't want to risk to wait that long before I'll get another chance to buy one at an even higher price.

I think this is a different sort of situation, where what is a fair market price is pretty indeterminate, and it's not just a matter of waiting for another one that's more reasonable.  As opposed to when the comparatively well-heeled bid up a coin just so they don't have to wait a bit longer, or worse, just on a whim.  One should consider the consequences for those less well-heeled than oneself in doing this, IMO.  There are ethics involved in buying.  (I realize this may be a controversial opinion and apologize if these thoughts offend anyone.  Would be happy to discuss via pm if so.)

I'm very glad you got your must-have fraction, @SimonW! 🙂 

[Hesiod]

3 hours ago, Severus Alexander said:

Do they update the start prices there like they do for the e-Live auctions?  

Unfortunately not, it seems they intentionally use covered bids before the live session. (I've seen auction houses that use Auex which have pre-bids shown on the site beforehand)

[Kaleun96]

5 hours ago, Severus Alexander said:

Thanks!  I expect revisiting these die studies adding in the many more known coins would repay the effort.  Personally I have some doubt that these early ones from Tarsus have a rigid order.  If we're talking a military mint here (as @kapphnwn has suggested) a little bit of chaos wouldn't be surprising, i.e. dies were mixed and matched a bit.

Let me know if you'd like to collaborate on such a die study, @Kaleun96, I'd be up for it!

Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if there are a few more dies here and there to add to what Newell had available. Though in terms of what is in ANS and acsearch, I didn't find much for Price 2990. I think I could match every ANS example of 2990 to one of the five dies in Newell, some of which are even the same specimen. There's only 5 or 6 examples in acsearch and while I didn't try die match those, on a quick glance they all seemed consistent with one of the five Newell dies.

I think there's definitely contemporaneity to the striking of some of these types, as Newell even suggests in terms of the Officinas, but that doesn't mean there isn't a discernible order to the manufacture of the types. For example, you have the die links and die condition which help suggest an order to their manufacture. In the case of Price 2990 (Newell 1, "Officina A") and Price 2999 (Newell 2 "Officina B"), I don't think an order can be discerned and they would be considered equally contemporaneous. I believe the only reason Newell 1 comes first is because it makes more sense if it belongs to the "Officina A" line due to die linkage; similarly Newell 2 has closer die links with "Officina B", and on the assumption that A is earlier than B, Newell 1 comes "first" but for all intents and purposes they were probably produced at very nearly the same time.

The other aspect that indicates an order to the die manufacturing, but not necessarily the coin striking, is the evolution of the symbols. For Tarsos it's a bit more confusing as you get the globule jumping around different positions of the field before suddenly turning into 4 globules. Damaskos is a bit easier as the globules do seem to increase in number over time. But you still might infer that the most sensical order of progression for Tarsos would be something like: no control marks --> globule or single letter --> letter + globule --> variations of letter + globule. Then the die links and die condition can help with the ambiguities, such as whether the lone globule came before the lone letter.

Some of the dated issues of Sidon have only 1 or 2 known dies (to Newell) so I don't think we necessarily need to assume there was always a lot of dies, and therefore possibly different types, being struck simultaneously. So while Tarsos has a bunch of very similar early types with minor variations in control marks, Sidon and Tyre sort of demonstrate that these could have been spread out over a period of a few years. On the other hand, Damaskos Series II with the "Ram forepart" may have struck all its types over a period of only 1 or 2 years, so even though we know the order of the types it probably doesn't matter much numismatically because they were likely all struck within a short period of time.

But speaking of die studies, I have thought about going through all the early types from Tarsos, Sidon, and Tyre to see if I can notice any new die links. Taylor has done something similar for Tyre and Sidon and found a new die link or two I believe. It's pretty tough given the condition of most of these early types though 😬

[Tejas]

I won three coins at the Künker Auction. None of the three was on my original list. The coins on my list all went astronomical. 

I bought this Julia Domna because of the reverse. I long wanted a coin with this particular depiction of Venus. According to Künker the coin is EF, so I have high hopes that the coin will be very pleasing.

 

[SimonW]

3 hours ago, Severus Alexander said:

I'm very glad you got your must-have fraction, @SimonW! 🙂

Thank you very much, @Severus Alexander 🙂 And congratulations on your great Tarsos Alex Tetradrachm!

 

3 hours ago, Severus Alexander said:

As opposed to when the comparatively well-heeled bid up a coin just so they don't have to wait a bit longer, or worse, just on a whim.  One should consider the consequences for those less well-heeled than oneself in doing this, IMO.  There are ethics involved in buying.

I'd disagree on this one. A free market economy doesn't work this way. But more importantly: who is to decide who (the well-heeled or the less well-heeled buyer) "deserves" a coin and who should or should not be bidding?

Edited October 21, 2022 by SimonW

[Tejas]

14 minutes ago, SimonW said:

I'd disagree on this one. A free market economy doesn't work this way. But more importantly: who is to decide who (the well-heeled or the less well-heeled buyer) "deserves" a coin and who should or should not be bidding?

I totally agree with the statement above. There is not only the interest of the buyers (collectors), but also the interest of the sellers. An auction caters to the interest of both groups. Compared to all alternatives, it is the most efficient and the "fairest" way to "allocate" coins from sellers to buyers.

[Restitutor]

10 hours ago, Severus Alexander said:

I see a few comments up there suggesting that some of us paid more than we were prepared to.  How about... not doing that?  Perhaps that might help prices settle down a bit? 😉

I didn't realize you could participate live in Künker floor auctions (as opposed to e-Live).  How do you do that, @Restitutor?

Here you go! https://kuenker.auex.de Register on that site and you'll be able to bid on the floor auction... or just cry seeing the prices go sky-high like I did 😂. You'll have to make a new registration there even if you have a Künker account already. It only works for the live bidding part of the floor auctions so if you pre bid on the Künker site, those pre-bids won't sync with this account. 

[jfp7375]

14 hours ago, jfp7375 said:

I bid on several RR Denarii and got absolutely boomed

Some of the hammer prices were literally double my estimate, and a couple of those I bid aggressively for and really wanted. Seems like a lot of the VF/EF borderline coins went for an outrageous premium to market value. 

Interestingly, a couple of the more expensive coins I tossed in bids for (a RR Quadrigatus and a beautiful Octavian denarius) went for more reasonable prices. Very expensive coins and I didn't win because I was bidding conservatively just in case I could snag a good deal, but much closer to market values in my opinion 

Well, I spoke too soon! After striking out at the Fall auction yesterday, I was able to win a coin I'm very excited about at a reasonable price this morning in the eLive auction!

This is RR type I've wanted for a long time, but the wings on the helmet and other features tend to wear down unusually quickly, and there are many with goofy flan shapes and other flaws ("Roma" sometimes cut off from the obverse") - so the coins tend to either be poorer or extremely expensive. 

This one has some roughness to its surfaces and some wear on the right side of the reverse - but very strong detail otherwise and complete features! I got it for 170 EUR which is not exactly a steal, but I was very happy with it for this type. 

[Prieure de Sion]

Today, things are not going so well at Künker either. Out of frustration I bought the Caligula / Divus Augustus bronze. I actually wanted a Gordianus bronze - but then I wasn't quite convinced and the only Gordianus from Antioch - that was too high for me and I wanted to let the other collector have his fun. Let's see - if something is still possible with the Solidus...

 

 

Æ-Dupondius, Rome; 15.48 g. Head l. with ray-bandage//Augustus seated l. with branch. BMC 88; Coh. 87; RIC² 56.

"The name of the seated emperor on the reverse is not certain. So far, Augustus, Claudius or Gaius Caligula have been variously identified in the depiction. The associated legend refers to Caligula's accession to power in Rome, when the emperor gave a speech before the senate, knights and representatives of the plebs (Cassius Dio 59,6; Suetonius, Caligula 14), which was intended to confirm the consensus universorum. For the discussion on the naming of the reverse representation see v. Kaenel in Schweizer Münzblätter 1978 pp. 39 ff."