Vcoin sellers..

[John Conduitt]

6 hours ago, Finn235 said:

I've gotten so sick of people shouting at ancient newbies "Don't buy on ebay! Buy only from Vcoins / MA Shops!"

Honestly, I'd rather get burned spending $25 on a fake worth $0 than spent $500 on a $100 coin because I don't know the market.

 eBay is also where some of us sell coins 🤣 It's still good advice to buy on VCoins if you want to avoid a fake, which is the main concern of a newbie. But it does need to be tempered with "and don't spend a large amount on VCoins until you've shopped around and know the market".

[John Conduitt]

1 hour ago, GregH said:

Like any business, people need to make a living. You will find some astonishing mark-ups on vcoins.

Dealers have costs - going to auctions, hotels, trade shows, photography, time, and research. AND they need to price in the risk that a coin they're selling may later be proven to be tooled or fake! You're not just buying the coin. You're buying all the hard work that the dealer has been doing to put that coin in their shop!

You may sometimes feel like you're over-paying, but you get a certain peace of mind that isn't available from an auction house.

I've thought about being a dealer. It would be my dream job. But I can't see a clear pathway to make it profitable.

I wonder how many dealers are not full time. I can make a profit selling coins without too much trouble but I could never earn enough to pay the bills, let alone take on staff. I think to do that, you have to have regular cheap bulk sources, or be at the top end.

Perhaps that's the difference here. The first dealer has cheap bulk sources and just wants their 10% or whatever, but needs to turn over the coins. The second dealer doesn't have the bulk sources but also doesn't need the flow of income, so will stick a high price on them to see what happens.

[DLTcoins]

There is a saying: "If you want to be a coin dealer and retire with a million dollars, start with two million."

Edited September 10, 2022 by DLTcoins

[Prieure de Sion]

Oh oh, that's so many points. I don't even know where to start. But one thing first - I don't want to attack anyone or question their opinion. I just want to list a few points here to maybe clarify things a bit. 

I have been a qualified businessman since 1990 and self-employed since 1998. I often have to struggle with the problem among my relatives and acquaintances that many people only ever see the positive things (lots of profit) and think that it's easy to earn money that way. But not the disadvantages and especially the risks. Many friends have seen somewhere that you can make a lot of money (and become rich) with this or that and have only seen the profits. In the end, they gave up after a few months.

Let's be clear about one thing. As a seller, you should not charge usurious prices. In the end, customers are not stupid. Fair prices mean loyal customers and mean a long business. I am concerned here with the normal profits - but you have to make them - otherwise you cannot survive. 

If - to stay with coins here - you buy a coin for 500 USD and sell it for 700 USD - this may be fascinating at first glance. After all, 200 USD earned with a mouse click. I don't know how it is in the US - but here, the taxes for the state can swallow up 1/3 of the profit that I have to account for and pay for my business. 

I could also tell you that I have to calculate into the price that if I take a holiday during the year - I don't get a salary but always take an unpaid holiday. If I fall ill - then I am also unpaid. Insurance for such cases is almost unaffordable. In addition, there are costs for a store (which you have to pay for at VCoins and MA-Shop), costs for private insurance, pension and so on. Everything that an employee would otherwise have to pay - I have to pay myself. I think that is known as far as it goes.

 

But let's talk about the coins in particular here.

Of course, traders buy from other traders - or they buy from auctions. Where else would all the coins come from? It's not like every day private collectors call and ask "do you want my coins"? Private collectors simply give their coins to auctions in one go. But that's normal. The car dealer also buys from other dealers or car auctions or somewhere else.

Now the value of a coin is highly speculative and high risk. When I trade in modern gold coins - I have a real gold value price to go by. A silver coin with 2.9 grams has a material value of a few USD - the rest is pure speculation. I can buy a Greek coin for 2,000 USD and tomorrow (a hoard has been found or nobody wants the coin anymore) I won't get 100 USD for it! Or it sits in my warehouse for months or years with no return and is dead capital.

You see, the trader bought ONE coin for 500 USD and sold it for 1000 USD! Wow! 

But he didn't just buy one coin - he bought three coins. One he was able to sell for a profit of 500 USD, a second coin he had to pass on at the purchase price without making a profit and the third coin he had to sell on after a long time at a loss of 300 USD - before making even more of a loss.

It is always (!) a mixed calculation that the merchant must make. Never calculate on one value, one object. You see the profit of a coin - but not the impending losses in other transactions. And I can tell you - there are plenty of them! 

Because a purchase of coins is always a bet with risk - that I can sell a coin more expensively - but also - whether I can even fulfil the wishes of my customers with it. Often you think - that's what my customers like - and nobody is interested in this coin! That happens - very often. And these losses must (!) be calculated and compensated with the profits from other coins. And that is not easy. 

In addition, there are wide risks. The coins you order are insured. But not really. Yes, the UPS, DHL, FedEx parcels have insurance - but all parcel services exclude valuables shipments! Valuable jewellery, jewels, gold coins, valuable antique silver coins - all these are excluded in the terms and conditions. You would have to take out extra insurance - but customers would not pay for that. I can't make customers pay for 100-200 euros of shipping from Europe to the USA. In reality, the shipping risk goes to the dealer. If you order a coin and it gets lost, you get your money back - but we as dealers have to replace the coin ourselves. And then 500, 1000 or more USD are quickly gone - simply gone. You also have to factor this risk into the price.

 

And then there is nothing wrong with "earning money" with a service. 

Each of you can study for hours and days at the computer, look at auctions. Compare prices. And buy cheaply yourself. No one is forcing you to buy from a dealer who has bought his coin from another dealer or an auction house. 

But please remember - there are so many private collectors - who don't want to do that. Or even simpler - they don't have the time. Or they don't want to have the time!

I have so many regular customers - who are very busy at work. For example, I have an engineer at NASA. He says - he has no time and no desire - to spend his little private free time on the internet looking for coins. He doesn't want to log on to auction houses everywhere. He doesn't want to compare all auction houses and dealers. He doesn't want to worry about customs and import. He just wants a nice coin - and he wants to take the time and peace to look at his coins in his room when he has free time. 

He knows - like my other regular customers - that I bought the coin cheaper! 

But he knows - that I spent the time to look for coins everywhere, that I registered, that I sit in front of the PC in all auctions, that I have to deal with shipping and customs. All he wants is to press a "buy" button - and for the coin to arrive without stress. That's what he's prepared to pay for the service.

And this is the case with many of my customers. Some now even send me lists where they are looking for certain coins, with a maximum price, and I try to find these coins at other dealers or auctions. They do not want this. It is too much of a waste of their time. And they pay for the service. I have to find the coins - I have to try to buy them - I take pictures - descriptions and videos of the coins. I have the risks I listed before.

Of course, I can't take my customers for fools. If a coin has a value of 500 USD - I can't sell it to my customers for 2000 USD and say that's for service. You have to remain fair. And if you stay fair - the customers will stay.

 

Long story short.

Don't look at the profit of a coin alone. There is so much more to it. If you think that you can earn money "stupidly" with coins and that it is so easy to get money quickly - then register with a shop and try your luck. But don't be alarmed if the reality is quickly different.

I hope I was able to explain a little about the processes behind it. Even if there are only a few things I have mentioned - and there is much more behind it.

Have fun with one of the most beautiful hobbies.

 

 

Edited September 10, 2022 by YOTHR

[Roman Collector]

I would like to ask those members who sell coins -- particularly at V-coins -- to explain something.

I have a watch list at V coins and there are coins on there I added to my list in 2012. That's not a typo. It's literally 10 years. I haven't bought the ten-year-old items on my watch list because I'm fickle. There's always some other coin that attracts my attention or I've shifted emphasis in my collecting habits. And, to be honest, the price of the coins is too high to entice me to buy.

I keep waiting for the coins to be discounted in price or to be sold. But they are still there, unsold after a decade.

I want to ask the dealers, "What are you doing? These coins are just sitting around in your inventory generating no revenue at all. You'd have been better off putting the money in a savings account, the rock-bottom interest rates notwithstanding!!"

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

Yes, much respect to the dealers, generally speaking. 

The one and only time I had a lost coin (there was some mechanical mishap at the post office, a mauled Allen Berman packet from the same time showed up) was a beautiful Khrusru II Drachm.  Dr. Fishman was nice about it, and I picked another one eventually, although I insisted on waiting just in case the coin showed up.  After about 3 months, I gave up waiting.

Ken Dorney sent me the wrong coin, but I was delighted with it, and checking that it wasn't someone else's, tidied up the difference and re-ordered the 'right' coin.

Except for coin shows, I'm pretty much a vcoins guy (I looked at MA coins, and the prices of cgb were just too high for my taste).  Some people just don't like auctions.  I'm just one of those guys.  Oh, and I will also partake of dealers with fixed prices who operate their respective websites.

Vcoins has enough selection for me, it's easy, has coins within my budget, etc.  It just meets my needs.

Yes, I'm sure there's some bargains in auctions, but it takes persistence and aggravation that I don't want to put up with.  Auctions usually aren't great for the budget collector (c. sub $500), either.

[Spaniard]

Thanks for all the replies....

I guess it just means get in there quicker somehow..🤷‍♂️

I checked through his stock and a large amount are from the other seller at between 100/300% markup....I just find it annoying!😡

 

 

[El Cazador]

38 minutes ago, Spaniard said:

Thanks for all the replies....

I guess it just means get in there quicker somehow..🤷‍♂️

I checked through his stock and a large amount are from the other seller at between 100/300% markup....I just find it annoying!😡

 

 

💯, I would be super annoyed too

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

I can't really fault anybody for trying to make a buck.  No one's forcing me to buy it, either.

Egregiously fake patinas and such bother me more than the guys with high prices.   Were they not shined up, the closer to home 'orange twin' (my nickname for the couple of vcoins dealers who love orange coins) would have some nice silver coins.  Trawling through the page there's just too many alterations .  Most of the stuff just looks weird.

I've never bought from the Quietus dealer in question (nothing's ever come up that I wanted to buy).

[John Conduitt]

2 hours ago, Spaniard said:

Thanks for all the replies....

I guess it just means get in there quicker somehow..🤷‍♂️

I checked through his stock and a large amount are from the other seller at between 100/300% markup....I just find it annoying!😡

There is very much a difference between dealers performing a useful fuction - collating and selling coins in a convenient place for collectors - and dealers making a profit for the sake of profit, even if that's at the expense of collectors, who could have bought the coin much cheaper without their intervention. You can't fault anyone for trying to earn a living, but this sort of 'living' is rather parasitic.

Of course, this sort of thing goes on in all industries, but coin collecting is badly affected because every coin is unique and the real 'price' is nebulous. That drives up prices, since every time a coin changes hands, the next person must pay 30%+ just to allow the previous buyer to break even.

Edited September 10, 2022 by John Conduitt

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

Anyone see the decrepit Carus (double?) Sestertius on vcoins ('as')?

I'm interested in super-late Sestertii, but it's so awful and a bit rich for me. 

 

[GregH]

12 hours ago, YOTHR said:

n addition, there are wide risks. The coins you order are insured. But not really. Yes, the UPS, DHL, FedEx parcels have insurance - but all parcel services exclude valuables shipments! Valuable jewellery, jewels, gold coins, valuable antique silver coins - all these are excluded in the terms and conditions. You would have to take out extra insurance - but customers would not pay for that. I can't make customers pay for 100-200 euros of shipping from Europe to the USA. In reality, the shipping risk goes to the dealer. If you order a coin and it gets lost, you get your money back - but we as dealers have to replace the coin ourselves. And then 500, 1000 or more USD are quickly gone - simply gone. You also have to factor this risk into the price.

I can relate to this especially! I put a Uranius Antoninus coin on eBay once, in a "Buy It Now or Best Offer" scenario. And i received an offer of several thousand dollars from an Italian customer. And then i started to worry! If i accept the offer - how do i insure a coin of that value and have it safely shipped? What if Italian customs decide this coin violates cultural property laws, and they seize the coin? The customer can get his money back from eBay, but I will have no remedy and i will have lost several thousand dollars. So I thought - screw that! If I'm selling high value coins in future, i'll give them to an auction house and they can deal with this nonsense!

[Constantivs]

On 9/9/2022 at 10:07 PM, Finn235 said:

I've gotten so sick of people shouting at ancient newbies "Don't buy on ebay! Buy only from Vcoins / MA Shops!"

Honestly, I'd rather get burned spending $25 on a fake worth $0 than spent $500 on a $100 coin because I don't know the market.

Would be very nice if experienced collectors pointed newbies to reliable eBay sellers… sadly it never happens.

[Steppenfool]

5 hours ago, Constantivs said:

Would be very nice if experienced collectors pointed newbies to reliable eBay sellers… sadly it never happens.

The issue for me is that I can't really do it in good faith. There's absolutely no guarantees. A reliable eBay seller can have a few fakes sprinkled in accidentally, or suddenly switch to selling fakes after building a good reputation, or may suddenly take to price gouging. The problem is there is absolutely no guaranteed protection for the buyer and it would be partly my fault as I declared the seller safe. I would happily recommend certain eBay sellers to an acquaintance who I can trust possesses adequate discernment, and I would happily give my opinion on certain coins in particular. However, I would not feel comfortable recommending a new collector any seller from eBay excluding those who are the eBay stores of those who also are present on vcoins/ma-shops or are a member of numismatic organisation.

One that fits the above criteria in the UK is:

denant (Den of Antiquity on vcoins)

[Kaleun96]

On 9/10/2022 at 4:07 AM, Finn235 said:

I've gotten so sick of people shouting at ancient newbies "Don't buy on ebay! Buy only from Vcoins / MA Shops!"

Honestly, I'd rather get burned spending $25 on a fake worth $0 than spent $500 on a $100 coin because I don't know the market.

That's an unfair comparison, you're comparing buyers with different budgets 🤔

Keeping the budget the same, you're just as likely to be fleeced on eBay as you are on Vcoins in terms of over-paying, if not more so. If the person is buying a $25 fake on eBay, their budget is probably $25 and that's what they'll spend on Vcoins as well. If their budget is $500 and they decide to try eBay instead of Vcoins, they're going to be ripped off in all likelihood, either by over-paying or by buying a fake.

[Spaniard]

I've just scratched the surface here!!......There are 10's and 10's and 10's more....

I could go ON and ON and ON.........I find this quite ugly!

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

I guess the solution would be to camp out at dealer A's site.  Those are some deals .

[sand]

I don't mind, if a Vcoins dealer buys a coin on Vcoins, and then tries to sell the coin on Vcoins at a higher price. To me, it's just a free market, it's just capitalism.

However, one thing that annoys me, is when, people try to sell gold plated coins on TV, at ridiculous prices. In fact, a lot of low quality products, that are sold on TV, annoy me. Medications that "treat" illness but don't cure illness, life insurance, reverse mortgages, debt consolidation, loans, pills to make you smarter (endorsed by "actual neuroscientists"), "fortune favors the brave" bitcoins, diet plans, "quit smoking" plans, low quality jewelry at ridiculous prices, etc. The problem is, some of these product claims, are difficult to disprove. What should be done about such things? Spread the word, and teach your children, and teach everyone, not to be suckered by such things, and to shop around, and do your own research, before buying something that you see on TV.

[John Conduitt]

1 hour ago, Spaniard said:

I've just scratched the surface here!!......There are 10's and 10's and 10's more....

I could go ON and ON and ON.........I find this quite ugly!

Both those Marcinus antoniniani were sold at Leu in July:

1) CHF110, which would be about EUR135 after fees and the exchange rate. The first dealer wanted EUR175 (+30%), the second EUR559 (+319%).

2) CHF140, which would be about EUR175 after fees and the exchange rate. The first dealer wanted EUR220 (+25%), the second EUR559 (+250%).

Given Leu isn't exactly an unknown auction house with no-one watching, EUR559 seems rather optimistic. It would be odd if they found buyers at that price very quickly, unless there are vast numbers of collectors with lots of money who don't touch auctions or do their research.

It's just as strange that dealer 2 doesn't seem to bid in Leu auctions.

Both dealers have very similar photos to Leu's.


Leu Numismatik AG > Web Auction 21Auction date: 19 July 2022
Lot number: 4956
Price realized: 110 CHF   (Approx. 113 USD / 111 EUR)   Note: Prices do not include buyer's fees.Show similar lots on CoinArchives
Macrianus, usurper, 260-261. Antoninianus (Billon, 21 mm, 4.13 g, 6 h), Samosata. IMP C FVL MACRIANVS P F AVG Radiate and cuirassed bust of Macrianus to right. Rev. IOVI CONSERVATORI Jupiter seated left, holding patera in his right hand and long scepter in his left; at feet to left, eagle standing left, head to right; in field to left, star. Cohen 8. MIR 1735k. RIC 9. Some porosity and with light scratches on the obverse, otherwise, very fine.
From the collection of Dipl.-Ing. Adrian Lang.
https://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer.php?LotID=2035703&AucID=4841&Lot=4956&Val=7a76e0275c4e5a8704ab2abb0b72db43


Leu Numismatik AG > Web Auction 20
Auction date: 16 July 2022
Lot number: 2722
Price realized: 140 CHF   (Approx. 143 USD / 142 EUR)   Note: Prices do not include buyer's fees.Show similar lots on CoinArchives
Macrianus, usurper, 260-261. Antoninianus (Billon, 20 mm, 3.93 g, 5 h), Samosata. IMP C FVL MACRIANVS P F AVG Radiate and cuirassed bust of Macrianus to right. Rev. INDVLGENTIAE AVG Indulgentia seated left, holding patera in her right hand and long transverse scepter in her left; in field to left, star. Cohen 6. MIR 1732k. RIC 8. Good very fine.
https://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer.php?LotID=2034289&AucID=4840&Lot=2722&Val=8a1d2b2d9204f53dfe8fc6b4ef277142

 

Edited September 11, 2022 by John Conduitt

[Prieure de Sion]

22 minutes ago, sand said:

I don't mind, if a Vcoins dealer buys a coin on Vcoins, and then tries to sell the coin on Vcoins at a higher price. To me, it's just a free market, it's just capitalism.

However, one thing that annoys me, is when, people try to sell gold plated coins on TV, at ridiculous prices. In fact, a lot of low quality products, that are sold on TV, annoy me. Medications that "treat" illness but don't cure illness, life insurance, reverse mortgages, debt consolidation, loans, pills to make you smarter (endorsed by "actual neuroscientists"), "fortune favors the brave" bitcoins, diet plans, "quit smoking" plans, low quality jewelry at ridiculous prices, etc. The problem is, some of these product claims, are difficult to disprove. What should be done about such things? Spread the word, and teach your children, and teach everyone, not to be suckered by such things, and to shop around, and do your own research, before buying something that you see on TV.

Oh yes! I don't know which country you're from. But with us in Germany there are sales tv channels, such as QVC. There, ignorant people are often offered a collection full of gold coins - small coins - little weight. Then people are specifically made afraid that they might lose their cash or savings. And that these real modern gold coins are a good investment.

The set was offered for around 8000 euros. I have then times the weight of all gold coins added and the genuine pure gold value calculated out - I believe it was around 1500 euros.

There is played with the fears of the people. And completely absurdly over value sold. These people who later times the coins in times of need to make money - then find that their invest is worth only a fraction of that. And can hardly believe it. That is annoying.

[Spaniard]

@John Conduitt....Interesting, Thanks John.

A month or so ago dealer A put up a lot of Septimius Severus,  Caracalla, Geta and Elagabalus, amongst others, provincials (crescent, star etc).....Déjà vu I'm looking at the same inventory in dealer B's but prices around 200%plus!....

Yes I do agree the sellers need to make a profit but to such an extreme!

[sand]

4 minutes ago, Prieure de Sion said:

Oh yes! I don't know which country you're from. But with us in Germany there are sales tv channels, such as QVC. There, ignorant people are often offered a collection full of gold coins - small coins - little weight. Then people are specifically made afraid that they might lose their cash or savings. And that these real modern gold coins are a good investment.

The set was offered for around 8000 euros. I have then times the weight of all gold coins added and the genuine pure gold value calculated out - I believe it was around 1500 euros.

I live in the USA. Now that I have Youtube Premium (no advertisements), and no cable TV (I quit that, many years ago), I see very few advertisements. One of the few times, that I see advertisements, is when I visit my mother, because she watches cable TV. I don't know how she can stand, to watch the same advertisements, and the same jokes ("now that you are a teenager, you may be having certain urges"), over and over. I usually mute the advertisements, when I'm watching TV with her. She used to buy a lot of jewelry from TV shows like QVC or JTV, and she still likes to watch the jewelry shows, but I think (I hope) she has stopped buying that stuff, for the most part. She said, that the jewelry she received, was low quality.

[Dwarf]

5 minutes ago, Spaniard said:

Yes I do agree the sellers need to make a profit but to such an extreme!

Just a question: How much profit will you allow them to take? And what about the yearly income, this needs to be restricted to for coin dealers, too
 

[Spaniard]

@Dwarf...Sorry I didn't mean the actual increase in price, people do what they want....

More the fact this is happening on the same platform and not just a few coins but a large swathe of B's stock!

[John Conduitt]

40 minutes ago, Dwarf said:

Just a question: How much profit will you allow them to take? And what about the yearly income, this needs to be restricted to for coin dealers, too
 

The question is - will they really sell for that? If so, what is everyone else doing missing out on that opportunity? 😂

If not, they just took a load of coins off the market for a lengthy period of time while they wait for miracles. Surely, this dealer is not your usual 'person trying to make a living'. They are taking a punt on rich returns.

It's all very well appealing to capitalism, but coins are not the best candidates for a perfect market. This dealer hopes to benefit from demand elasticity. They want to become a monopolist. They're hoping Spaniard will have no choice but to buy the coins even though he can see the prices have risen 300%. But he won't. He also won't be able to buy any of the coins while this dealer gambles, making his hobby less enjoyable. This is what's annoying.

Edited September 11, 2022 by John Conduitt