DCCR

On 2/6/2024 at 8:05 PM, Kaleun96 said:

Who needs four examples per type? Many of them probably of the same die pairings too.

People doing die studies? I have 31 examples of the same type with 9 of the from the same die pair. Four examples of a type seems pedestrian.

Nice coin and nice writeup.  Durotrigan coins are my favourite.

37 minutes ago, LONGINUS said:

I’d love to see your Celtic coins from Britain and your Roman coins of the period.

Here are some of my Celtic coins (both sides are shown, so it's only half as many as it looks):

8 hours ago, idesofmarch01 said:

That brings me to my first question for the collectors here: Is there anyone on Numis Forums for whom a slabbed coin affects their purchasing decision of a coin for their own collection?  Note that I’m not asking about the possible effect of slabbing on the coin’s price.  Simply, if you’re evaluating the exact same coin slabbed vs. unslabbed – all other factors being equal – does it make a difference to you.  If so, why?

I find slabbing a parasitic and polluting industry and I don't want my money encouraging it. That, along with the hassle and risk of deslabbing them, means I generally avoid slabbed coins. I have bought one because I needed it for a die study and I was feeling impatient, but I normally ignore the slabbed coins and wait until a raw version comes along.

It's an interesting one. Overall the style is ok, the strike and reverse detail are as expected (on great coins of course), and these later coins could be quite flat compared to the earlier ones. The damage to the M on the obverse looks a bit fake though. 

It's a Class 7c Arc Stem from dies 74/127 which has one known example. Unfortunately there are multiple examples of this coin so it's not clear which one is the real one (if any of them): The British Museum (CCI 68.0371 card 1; unfortunately not in their online collection), Baldwins (CCI 68.0371 card 2), Colchester Musem (CCI 68.0371 card 3), SNC April 1977 (CCI 68.0371 card 4), Spinks 1990 (CCI 68.0371 card 6), and a modern AR forgery (CCI 62.0026). The coin you posted is identical to those so it's a modern forgery.  It's possibly a reproduction made to sell in museum shops.

There are other coins listed with the same obverse die but different reverses some of which are real (for example CCI 14.0930) and some which seem to be fake (for example CCI 04.0602). This one (CCI 14.0930) is a genuine one from the same obverse but from the next reverse die:

Here's mine for fun (not sure which dies):

Verica doesn't have any bronze coins attributed to him; just gold and silver.  As the seller has attributed it to Verica he/she should be able to give you a standard reference for it, or at least explain the Verica link. 

3 hours ago, DonnaML said:

On the Facebook ancient coins group, it has been suggested that this coin (see https://www.hjbltd.com/#!/inventory/item-detail/cc/102485😞

is not only a cast reproduction, but has an "R" for "reproduction" stamped at about 1 o'clock on the obverse. I suggested that perhaps it's just a countermark, but most disagreed.

What say the experts here?

It's a reproduction. The post had the link to the sales page for the reproduction

https://www.museumreproductions.co.uk/shop/viewitem.php?productid=319

[EDIT I should have read to the end before answering. John already gave the link]

On 5/12/2023 at 6:17 PM, Edessa said:

Sorry this took me a little while, but here are updated pics. I have had the coin for over 10 years, so I thought it was high time to take my own pictures!

Many thanks @Edessa - it's great to have another findspot for these

On 5/4/2023 at 8:10 PM, Edessa said:

This was $215.

Celtic Britain. Durotriges, 58 BC-AD 43. Debased AV Quarter Stater (12mm, 1.45g, 10h). Obv: Wolf design; pellet rosette to left. Rev: Zigzag thunderbolt across field; Y shape and uncertain objects to each side. Ref: VA 1225; BMC 414-418; ABC 2205. Good Very Fine. Scarce. Ex Spink. Ex Chris Rudd, with ticket. Registered in the CCI as 98.1890. This coin is one of the few coins in the Celtic Coin Index at Oxford to have had a full metal analysis. This coin was analyzed for Bob Van Arsdell by Dr. Peter Northover of Oxford University. Metal contents: gold 30.42% silver 48.10% copper 21.02%. CCI documentation indicates this coin was also Ex Spink & Son.

Hi Edessa - lovely coin 🙂 Would it be possible to get a photo of the ticket?  This coin is part of my die study and the extra information on it looks like it could be useful.  

I've written two technical books in Word (digital electronics and software) and I'm working on my third (coins). It's fine despite what some people say. The publisher took the last one and converted it to InDesign but they didn’t change any of the layout, fonts, numbering, etc, so I'm not sure why they bothered. Good luck

39 minutes ago, idesofmarch01 said:

My most recent Celtic addition is this Easter Celtic "Colchis" or "Kolchis,", the obverse described as "Stylized head of Athena" and the reverse described as "Highly stylized Nike." 

Nice coins 🙂. I'm a fan of the Kolchis imitations. I only have a Lysimachus one though:

38 minutes ago, John Conduitt said:

That might also explain the strange roundel in front of the horse.

It's hard to say. I've checked all [1] the coins recorded from these dies and this is the only one that shows the roundel in front of the horse.  The roundel is poorly engraved on a number of other dies so it might have been this shape from the start.   Die breaks on the obverse and reverse put Lee's coin after the CR one, and the entire paw (actually a hairlock) seems to be broken on that, so it does look like Lee's is recut, although it would be nice to see some other coins that show this portion as well to be sure.

[1] Caveat - some of the coins don't have die numbers assigned to them so I can't be sure they aren't matches.  I quick check suggests that they aren't, but I'm not die matching them to be 100% sure

7 minutes ago, leeshiel said:

I wasn't going to ask for value, if you take time to read through the thread CR wants to view the coin before they will provide any information and i am not prepared to send them the coin at this stage.

Fair enough - I just thought it would save you some time if value was the information you were after. 

23 minutes ago, leeshiel said:

 

Thank you for the detailed explanation John you have put to words my thoughts,

I think the way forward to learn more about this coin is to contact Dr Sills https://www.arch.ox.ac.uk/people/dr-john-a-sills

Thank for your time and help i will update the thread if i get to learn more.

What is it you still want to know?  John Sills won't value it for you and will probably just direct you to Liz at Chris Rudd Ltd.

11 minutes ago, leeshiel said:

i know very little about Celtic coins my information was taken from a coin sold by CR that was from the same die

Nice find Lee 🙂.  ABC is 12 years old and many of the rarity ratings are out of date now.  If it was listed as scarce in a Chris Rudd auction then it's at least scarce now (51 to 100 coins).   I've just checked and there are 86 recorded in the CCI at the moment.

If you are on Facebook and want to find out more about Celtic coins, I can recomend this group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2375591872472089

This is an important hoard (technically two hoards) and it's nice to see that the museum have made a good job of displaying it.  There's a bit more information about it here: https://finds.org.uk/database/artefacts/record/id/889614 

You could ask them on their Facebook page if it will be back https://www.facebook.com/tesorillopuntocom/

I won't have time to test it but I had a poke about and noticed a problem:

Go to this page:
https://syrios.uh.edu/site-map

And click on "Let me Explore" at the bottom
https://syrios.uh.edu/explore

"The requested URL was not found on this server."

It's the same URL as on the "Let Me Explore" button on the front page.  If you click on the "Let Me Explore" button on the front page it takes you to https://syrios.uh.edu/explore. If you refresh the page it goes to "The requested URL was not found on this server."

This was done with firefox.  I haven't tested any other browsers

1 hour ago, John Conduitt said:

And somehow I missed the photo of your collection on the other post. That is incredible. A lot of Durotriges in there? You can't be far off the leading expert in those...

Thanks :-).  The more I study them, the less I know.  I'm doing a die study of the quarter staters and John Talbot is doing the staters. 

56 minutes ago, John Conduitt said:

Great book lists and really useful.

This is true, but Van Arsdell's system certainly persists in many places - probably because you can get it for free on the website.

I don't see it getting used much as a primary reference these days. It's normally ABC or Spinks that get used, with VA maybe being added as a secondary reference.  I'm surprised Spinks gets used more then VA though. I know many collectors and metal detectorists in the UK will have a copy of Spinks, but VA is free online like you say and should probably get more attention than it does. 

1 hour ago, Al Kowsky said:

Some of the books in your list are hard to find & expensive, especially if they are out of print 😉.

Tell me about it!  I may have to choose between collecting coins and collecting books about coins😂.  Stukeley's "Twenty-three plates of the coins of the ancient British kings" is probably my most expensive so far.  I own most of these (all but Van Arsdel) so if you want to get more info before buying any of them, feel free to get in touch.

If I can steal @Al Kowsky 's thunder slightly (sorry Al) here's a bigger book list I put together for my Iron Age coins Facebook group. 

If you just want a book to identify British Celtic Coins, then get “Ancient British Coins”.  If you want to dig deeper into the topic, or like collecting books, then read on. 

Celtic Coins (General)

“An Introduction to Celtic Coins” by Derek Allen is a nice lightweight read. “Coinage in the Celtic World” by Daphne Nash covers the same topics, but in much more detail. Neither book is particularly expensive, but you’ll probably get more value from Nash’s book if you can only afford one.

British Celts (General)

“Ancient British Coins” is a must have for anyone considering collecting coins from this area. It’s now the defacto reference book for British Celtic coins (when you see “ABC” references, this is the book they refer to). 

“Celtic Coinage of Britain” by Robert Van Arsdell is still a great book, although his reference system is now superseded, as are some of his conclusions. The “VA” reference numbers you’ll come across refer to this.  It's also available for free online.

"Coins of England and the United Kingdom" by Spinks has a section at the start covering British Celtic coins.  I have a copy, but I wouldn't recommend it just for the Celtic coins.  If you do get it, don't pay any attention to the prices. They have no relationship with reality.  This is the book for the "S " reference numbers. 

"The Coinage of Ancient Britain" by R. P. Mack is well out of date, but I still like it. It comes in various editions.  3rd Edition (1975), 2nd Edition (1964) and the first edition (1953). "Mack" or "M " reference numbers refer to this

"British Iron Age Coins in the British Museum” by Hobbs. It contains photos of every coin in the museum’s collection, and a good deal of background. Perhaps the most useful feature is the index of symbols, which lets you look up a coin by its artwork. If you find coins with “BM” or "BMC" references, this is the book they refer to.

“Celtic Coinage in Britain” by Philip de Jersey, and “The Tribes and Coins of Celtic Britain” by Pudill and Eyre, are both interesting books that won’t break the bank.

"Problems of the Iron Age in Southern Britain" contains a paper (pp. 97-308) by Derek Allen called "The Origins of Coinage in Britain: A Reappraisal".  Better known as "Origins", this is where he organised the Gaulish and British coins into the "Gallo Belgic" and "British" categories (i.e. GB-E and British A). 

British Celts (Specific)

“Made for Trade: A New View of Icenian Coinage” by John Talbot goes in-depth into the coins of the Iceni tribe. If you collect, or plan to collect, their coins, then this is a must-have book.  If you just want a quick guide to the coins, then "Coins of the Iceni" is a great book.

“Divided Kingdoms: The Iron Age Gold Coinage of Southern England” by John Sills takes a very in-depth look at the gold coins from this area. There are two aspects of this book that make it a must-have for the serious collector. Firstly, it fully defines all the coin types. If you are planning to collect an applicable coin set (gold coins from southern England) then this is the book that defines the set. Secondly, Sills has included full catalogues for every applicable coin. Weight, die numbers, CCI or PAS reference where available, or other source information (auction details, eBay details, dealer details, private collection details, etc) where not. Unfortunately it’s not always possible to find the actual coin from these (for example, eBay items are only archived for 90 days so references to them are meaningless now), but it does give you a very accurate rarity figure for a coin, and for individual dies for the coin. If you find coins with “Sills” references, this might be the book they refer to.

John Sills has another book called “Gaulish and Early British Gold Coinage” which, despite its title, covers only three types of coins from Britain (Insular Cf, Insular Xe and Insular Xf). It’s probably not worth the cost just for these, as they are also covered in his Divided Kingdoms book. However, if you want to know about the evolution of gold coinage in Gaul, and therefore Britain, then it's a great book.

If you are interested in identifying Corieltavi silver coins, the "Boar Horse: Uninscribed Silver Coins of the Corieltavi" is the book for you.  For a slightly more specialised look at the Corieltavi coins, then "The Coins of the Coritani" by Derek Allen might be worth tracking down.  It's 40 pages long (excluding plates) and out of date (it was published in 1963 and even the tribe's name has changed) so probably only worth it if you are really into these coins.

"The Coinage of the Atrebates and Regni" by Bean is his PhD thesis on the topic. It's almost certainly superseded by “Divided Kingdoms” so probably only worth getting if you specialise in the coins from this area.

"The Coinage of the Dobunni: Money Supply and Coin Circulation in Dobunnic Territory" is about the only book that exists that focuses solely on the Dobunni.  Again, only worth getting if you are really into these coins. I found "Bagendon, a Belgic oppidum: A record of the excavations of 1954-56" to be a much more useful book on the topic (pp. 75-149 "A Study of the Dobunnic Coinage" by Derek Allen)

Finally, “Coin Hoards in Iron Age Britain” by Philip de Jersey gives details of every Celtic coin hoard ever found in Britain. The casual collector probably won’t get much out of this book, but if you start to seriously collect British Celtic coins, then this will help you with your detective work.

Art on Celtic Coins

“Ancient Celtic Coin Art” by Simon Lilly costs almost nothing and is dedicated to the subject, although don’t expect any scientific analysis. Instead, think “new age”. “Celtic Improvisations: An Art Historical Analysis of Coriosolite Coins” by John Hooker contains quite a good discussion about the art on Celtic coins, and it’s remarkably general considering the book is entirely focused on the coins from one tribe.

“Coins and Power in Late Iron Age Britain” by John Creighton also covers the topic nicely, with his discussion of serial imagery and the ritualistic reasons behind the art.  The book is mainly about other things, but I never read beyond the section on serial imagery.  If you like inscribed coins and the tribal dynasties, then you might enjoy the rest of it.

12 hours ago, Prieure de Sion said:

Now I read and understand this! This is an British Stater BASED on the Philip II Tetradrachm??? Really? Based? 

Based on a stater. The eastern Celtic coins were based on the tetradrachms (see here). The stater derivation went something like this (from here)

As for the magic mushrooms, that's a distinct possibility. It’s the only way to explain the Yarmouth Stater 😂.

1 minute ago, Kali said:

Put your mouse cursor over the thread title and a little window appears showing some text to what the topic is about. Cointalk has it too, but this board shows more.

Thanks - that's good to know.  I wasn't able to get it to work on my ipad or my phone, and on my PC it takes 2 seconds for the box to appear so it's too slow for skimming a page.  Do you know how to use this feature on a touch sensitive device or if the window can made to appear more quickly?

I pretty much exclusively use Facebook and I run a group on Celtic coins there with over 3,000 members (https://www.facebook.com/groups/2375591872472089).  I'm a member of quite a few ancient coin groups over there. 

CoinTalk was good to read but not worth posting on, and I find Forum Ancient Coins too visually unappealing to look at, so I seldom go there.  I’m trying to stick with this forum for a while, but I find myself only checking it every couple of days.  The problem I have with the forums is that you only get to see the thread title to work out if it’s worth reading.  A longer abstract would be useful.

I tried reddit and discord but I didn't really like them. I try every now and again to engage with them, but it never sticks.  I suspect it’s because they don’t offer me anything I don’t already get from Facebook so there’s no great incentive to open up another page or app.